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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:01 am    Post subject: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigger Reply with quote

Apparently, in the Netherlands and Belgium, Santa has one little helper who's a black-face, big-lipped, goofy-acting, old school porch-monkey-looking caricature of a Negro. They don't want to get rid of him, because their little racist-in-training kids would be devastated; apparently he's like Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer (Rudolph the shuck-and-jive Elf-Negro).
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(Reuters) - The Netherlands and Belgium are two countries that pride themselves on progressive laws and open societies, but critics say they are stuck in the dark ages when it comes to depictions of Santa Claus and his helpers.

Saint Nicholas, or "Sinterklaas" in Dutch, brings presents to children on December 5 in the Netherlands and on December 6 in Belgium, and is always accompanied by at least one assistant dressed in 17th century costume who has a blackened face.

The tradition has been difficult for Dutch and Belgian people to explain abroad, where "Zwarte Piet" (Black Pete) is viewed with either outrage or ridicule.

Dutch pub "De Hems" in London opts for blue face paint instead. Sinterklaas celebrations in western Canada organized by the Dutch community were called off last year and former Dutch colony Suriname has said Zwarte Piet is not welcome this year because of concerns over racism.

For most Dutch and Belgians Zwarte Piet is an innocuous fairytale character who assists the popular Sinterklaas and hands out candy to children, but some there too argue he is a harmful stereotype best done away with.

"It was about six years ago when my mum came home from work and phoned me," performance artist Quinsy Gario, who was born on the Dutch Caribbean island of Curacao, told Reuters.

"On the phone I could hear her trembling. She was upset, livid, and said someone at work had called her Zwarte Piet."

In 2011, Gario decided to protest against the tradition by standing with a "Zwarte Piet is racism" T-shirt in a crowd watching a Sinterklaas parade in the Dutch town of Dordrecht. His subsequent arrest made headlines in Dutch media.

Film by a bystander showed three police officers pinning him to the ground and kneeing him in the back. Gario also said he had pepper spray sprayed in his eyes.

"I spent six and a half hours in a jail cell for freedom of expression," he said.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/03/us-dutch-belgium-racism-idUSBRE8B20G820121203
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:15 am    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

I'm dreaming of a Black Christmas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SODLknaAHs
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

Quote:
concerns over racism.


Linky

We did one better here and attempted to rename & reband Christmas
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Black elves? That mothafucka gonna live forever and not do shit!". :lol:
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
Quote:
concerns over racism.


Linky

We did one better here and attempted to rename & reband Christmas


given that councils etc spend money on christmas (read: my non-christian tax dollars), I expect to be included.

It's easy to avoid ramadan. not so much with christmas. Ahhhhh, life in a theocracy.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's true.

The story usually told is that Sinterklaas' helpers go through the chimneys of houses to leave presents, so they become black with soot. How they keep their clothes clean is never specified. In the last few decades they have been portrayed as cheerful helpers, each with their own roles like the smurfs. There's a party Piet and a poem Piet and a music Piet and whatever.

It's something I'm not proud of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
given that councils etc spend money on christmas (read: my non-christian tax dollars), I expect to be included.

It's easy to avoid ramadan. not so much with christmas. Ahhhhh, life in a theocracy.


Religion doesn't really come into it any more, it's part of the culture - it's the
trace - may contain nuts - bit that the council attempted to wipe out with Winterville
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
given that councils etc spend money on christmas (read: my non-christian tax dollars), I expect to be included.

It's easy to avoid ramadan. not so much with christmas. Ahhhhh, life in a theocracy.


Religion doesn't really come into it any more, it's part of the culture - it's the
trace - may contain nuts - bit that the council attempted to wipe out with Winterville


so what's the problem then? Actually, it was Winterval. Historically, that is a more accurate term. Given that Christmas comes from the mid winter celebrations that predate it, "winterval" is pretty accurate. I like it. I am moving to Brum.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
so what's the problem then? Actually, it was Winterval.


Typo on my part, mea culpa. The problem is attacking the name Christmas, seeking to remove
any trace of its Christian origin. That bit is part of our culture.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boris27 wrote:
It's true.

The story usually told is that Sinterklaas' helpers go through the chimneys of houses to leave presents, so they become black with soot.
If it is soot, how can it possibly be racist? The fix would be to make it more apparent that it is soot.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are the big, red lips, bling, garish clothing, and Afro hairdo "soot" too?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is based on soot, then it isn't racism. But if it has been misappropriated into a caricature, then the caricature may be racist. But that doesn't make the original racist. See also swastika.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
If it is based on soot, then it isn't racism. But if it has been misappropriated into a caricature, then the caricature may be racist. But that doesn't make the original racist. See also swastika.

You are confused. This isn't that hard to understand.

The original idea is racist. The original idea is that Sinterklaas, like all important men, has a personal step-n-fetch negro house boy "servant". This was related in a story of theirs and a painting (not unlike how other similar traditions develop, such as Rudolph or the Grinch). Actors playing Sinterklaas for various purposes then had to be accompanied by "Swarte Piet", who was in highly caricaturized Sambo-looking blackface makeup like all negro characters in theater at the time. This was then expanded for some reason into multiple Swarte Piets (perhaps in keeping with the idea elsewhere of Santa having multiple "little helpers" or "elves", just that these ones were all black).

At any rate, the tradition continued long after similar racist stereotypes were abolished, forcing parents who don't want their children to believe that Santa actually has a bunch of little Sambo-looking elf-negro "helpers" to make up some bullshit so they're not endorsing a racist stereotype. Therefore, many of them started telling their kids that, like chimney-sweeps, Swarte Piets' faces are black from going up and down the chimneys.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, OK. I did misunderstand Boris. Obviously the new version should rename them Rainbow Piet and they should look more like Teletubbies.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Or more likely, like Smurfs. :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Pete?!? Horrible name.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
Black Pete?!? Horrible name.

It could be worse. Instead of little Black Pete he could be big Black Peter.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
pjp wrote:
If it is based on soot, then it isn't racism. But if it has been misappropriated into a caricature, then the caricature may be racist. But that doesn't make the original racist. See also swastika.

You are confused. This isn't that hard to understand.

The original idea is racist. The original idea is that Sinterklaas, like all important men, has a personal step-n-fetch negro house boy "servant". This was related in a story of theirs and a painting (not unlike how other similar traditions develop, such as Rudolph or the Grinch). Actors playing Sinterklaas for various purposes then had to be accompanied by "Swarte Piet", who was in highly caricaturized Sambo-looking blackface makeup like all negro characters in theater at the time. This was then expanded for some reason into multiple Swarte Piets (perhaps in keeping with the idea elsewhere of Santa having multiple "little helpers" or "elves", just that these ones were all black).

At any rate, the tradition continued long after similar racist stereotypes were abolished, forcing parents who don't want their children to believe that Santa actually has a bunch of little Sambo-looking elf-negro "helpers" to make up some bullshit so they're not endorsing a racist stereotype. Therefore, many of them started telling their kids that, like chimney-sweeps, Swarte Piets' faces are black from going up and down the chimneys.


Exactly. The soot is basically an excuse to hide the fact that Sinterklaas has slaves. He and all his helpers even arrive by boat every year.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't want to be Swarte Piet in Belgium. I'd be worried somebody was going to cut my hand off with a machete. Belgians like to do that to black people, apparently (like 10 million of them in the Congo).
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All you have to do in Europe is talk to elderly people whos line of thought was formed before political corectness, give them a beer or two, then talk about immigrants, black people, gypsies, turks, etc etc.

It gets hillarious, as if you are watching a character out of KKK movie.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, hilarious. I wonder if they think it's hilarious how all the young people, indoctrinated since birth, actually buy into the bullshit the old folks decided ought to be the politically correct official views.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
so what's the problem then? Actually, it was Winterval.


Typo on my part, mea culpa. The problem is attacking the name Christmas, seeking to remove
any trace of its Christian origin. That bit is part of our culture.


Winter Consumer Orgy (WCO) clearly has nothing to Jesus or Christmas, so why call it that? it is a secular party, it's origins predate Christianity, so why not call a spade a spade? It is a different beast. So, how about this. If I am in a church in late december, I will say Merry Christmas to everyone. If I am in a mall I will say Happy WCO. Truth in advertising.

My other problem is that I DON'T LIKE the tradition, so I want to change it. I don't want the state to be married to a church.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Yeah, hilarious. I wonder if they think it's hilarious how all the young people, indoctrinated since birth, actually buy into the bullshit the old folks decided ought to be the politically correct official views.


EDIT:

The evil in it is that it promotes a stereotype, regardless if you pretend it's a joke. People should be treated according to the golden rule on general level, and then according to individual merit regardless of baseline.

It would help getting rid of discussions like:

a swede: all of you balkan people are monkeys with ak47's, we are awesome we build Volvo.
me: yeah, but did YOU build a Volvo, and do you see ME with an ak47?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:22 am    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

juniper wrote:
John-Boy wrote:
juniper wrote:
so what's the problem then? Actually, it was Winterval.


Typo on my part, mea culpa. The problem is attacking the name Christmas, seeking to remove
any trace of its Christian origin. That bit is part of our culture.


Winter Consumer Orgy (WCO) clearly has nothing to Jesus or Christmas, so why call it that? it is a secular party, it's origins predate Christianity, so why not call a spade a spade? It is a different beast. So, how about this. If I am in a church in late december, I will say Merry Christmas to everyone. If I am in a mall I will say Happy WCO. Truth in advertising.

My other problem is that I DON'T LIKE the tradition, so I want to change it. I don't want the state to be married to a church.

But it's not just a Winter Consumer Orgy. Mostly it's a feel-good time. People are nice to each other around Christmas. That, and not the giving and receiving of gifts (unless you're under 13 years old or so), is what makes it special.

The word may have had its origins in religion, but it's taken on an entirely different meaning. What's so wrong with using it. Do people go apeshit when somebody uses the word "holiday"? Do people go into labor when somebody refers to the "Easter" Bunny? Do people suffer Traumatic Rectal Prolapse when somebody refers to "Halloween?" No. So why the frickin' bellyaching about "Christmas"?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Racist Netherlands and Belgium and their Christmas Nigge Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:

But it's not just a Winter Consumer Orgy. Mostly it's a feel-good time. People are nice to each other around Christmas. That, and not the giving and receiving of gifts (unless you're under 13 years old or so), is what makes it special.


sounds like a "happy holiday" to me. If it has little to do with Christ and more to do with frost and santa, let's just say that.

Quote:

The word may have had its origins in religion, but it's taken on an entirely different meaning. What's so wrong with using it. Do people go apeshit when somebody uses the word "holiday"? Do people go into labor when somebody refers to the "Easter" Bunny? Do people suffer Traumatic Rectal Prolapse when somebody refers to "Halloween?" No. So why the frickin' bellyaching about "Christmas"?


I don't care if people say "merry christmas", but it is a bit odd to walk up to a jew/muslim/sikh and say it. It's still a christian holiday. jews don't walk up to me and say happy hanukah and muslims don't walk up to me and say happy ramadan. That's because they probably assume that i don't celebrate it and they are right. I celebrate winterval, but I don't celebrate christmas.

but the other problem is that if you take my non-christian tax dollars and paint the town all winterval, include my dumbass in that. If you further claim "it's not really a christian holiday anymore", then let's drop the word. That's my main point. I am still sore about the state religion. I wouldn't give a shit in america. But here, anything christian rubs me the wrong way.
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