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sikpuppy
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Koala Kid wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Gaza is like a concentration camp with, for example, a barely adequate food supply deliberately calculated to cause hunger but not so low that people will actually die of hunger.


starving people are starving
and yes, they are starving

You have to remember that the cost of food is rocketing up.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
If it's OK for Israel to defend itself by firing missiles into civilian areas, killing children and pregnant women, burning down civilian homes and vehicles, and knocking out power to half a million people (almost none of whom have anything to do with rocket attacks) then clearly these tactics are OK for Palestinians too. If you object to these tactics when used by Palestinians, you must object to them when use by Israel as well.


Okay. So it's easy to be an armchair quarterback from the safety of a well defended country. What would you do if you were in Israel's shoes and you had some crazy militants launching rocket strikes on you? Let me guess. Read the economist and let the free market handle it? I'd love to hear your suggestion. It's easy to criticize from the outside, but seriously what the fuck would you do if you were in their shoes and you had an adversary constantly calling for the death of you and everyone like you just across your borders raining down rockets on you and your neighbors?
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
It's a significant difference. Anyone with any kind of moral backbone knows that intent means everything.

It means something, not everything. If I understand you, you are saying that since Israel is attacking valid targets, we can accept it if they harm bystanders in the process. I don't think that's right. Attacking a valid target does not give you the right to harm bystanders. For example, it is valid for me to attack a criminal on the street, but not to lob a grenade at him and cause harm to bystanders. My intent may have been to attack a valid target, but my predictable harm to bystanders cannot be accepted. I think the same standard applies to Israeli armed forces.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ratmonkey wrote:
Okay. So it's easy to be an armchair quarterback from the safety of a well defended country. What would you do if you were in Israel's shoes and you had some crazy militants launching rocket strikes on you? Let me guess. Read the economist and let the free market handle it? I'd love to hear your suggestion. It's easy to criticize from the outside, but seriously what the fuck would you do if you were in their shoes and you had an adversary constantly calling for the death of you and everyone like you just across your borders raining down rockets on you and your neighbors?

My suggestion is to apprehend or kill the crazy militants launching rockets, but do it in a way that isn't going to harm bystanders. I don't know where you live, but if crazy militants were launching rockets from a school in your area, I guarantee the situation would be handled differently than the armed forces raining down hundreds of missile strikes against your city. You just have to figure out a way to get the specific people responsible for the rockets. I'm not an expert on these matters so I can't tell you exactly how to do it, but in my view this is what is required for an ethical response.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
It means something, not everything. If I understand you, you are saying that since Israel is attacking valid targets, we can accept it if they harm bystanders in the process. I don't think that's right. Attacking a valid target does not give you the right to harm bystanders. For example, it is valid for me to attack a criminal on the street, but not to lob a grenade at him and cause harm to bystanders. My intent may have been to attack a valid target, but my predictable harm to bystanders cannot be accepted. I think the same standard applies to Israeli armed forces.

You have it backwards, Hamas' use of human shields and storing weapons and equipment in civilian areas is what is putting them in harms way. That's why those acts are war crimes under the Geneva conventions. Going by your logic, Hamas could surround rocket batteries with masses of civilians, and Israel would have no option but to put up with *their* civilians getting hammered by rockets uncontested.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I don't like neither Israel nor Arab world, but I know this; when someone is shooting at you, you shoot back.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zionists war crimes exposed by a brave british officer
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
You have it backwards, Hamas' use of human shields and storing weapons and equipment in civilian areas is what is putting them in harms way. That's why those acts are war crimes under the Geneva conventions. Going by your logic, Hamas could surround rocket batteries with masses of civilians, and Israel would have no option but to put up with *their* civilians getting hammered by rockets uncontested.

It does put them in harm's way, but you don't lose your human rights because someone puts you in harm's way. Suppose someone in your apartment building was shooting at people out his window. Would it be acceptable for police to level the building with a missile, writing off the resulting deaths and property destruction as "Not our fault"? I don't think so. What this boils down to, in my opinion, is the belief that foreign lives are somehow worth less than domestic lives--that actions which are unthinkable in your own city are OK when the lives and property lost belong to foreigners. I don't agree with that.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
It does put them in harm's way, but you don't lose your human rights because someone puts you in harm's way. Suppose someone in your apartment building was shooting at people out his window. Would it be acceptable for police to level the building with a missile, writing off the resulting deaths and property destruction as "Not our fault"? I don't think so. What this boils down to, in my opinion, is the belief that foreign lives are somehow worth less than domestic lives--that actions which are unthinkable in your own city are OK when the lives and property lost belong to foreigners. I don't agree with that.

It's a war, not law enforcement, complete with organised military and paramilitary units armed with explosive ordinance from both ends crossing borders, not a trivial lone nutjob popping off rifle rounds. Ridiculous comparisons are just ridiculous. You can't just wilfully deny reality and pretend that there are no military conflicts in the world or that they're resolvable by libertarian dogma.
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you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be the first to complain about libertarian dogma but you don't have to be libertarian to criticise Israel's actions in Gaza, just human.

They took out a Sky News office today so I guess News Corporation won't be able to fire any more missiles at Israel.

Oh and killed a bunch of "sand thumping medieval savages". Or was it innocent women and children? It's so hard to tell them apart.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
I'd be the first to complain about libertarian dogma but you don't have to be libertarian to criticise Israel's actions in Gaza, just human.

Or a lack of critical thinking skills. It would explain the extreme pro-war-criminal bias.

mcgruff wrote:
They took out a Sky News office today so I guess News Corporation won't be able to fire any more missiles at Israel.

Sky News wrote:
Israel has denied targeting foreign media in airstrikes in Gaza, saying it was aiming for Hamas communication sites.

The Israeli Defence Forces have released video footage of one of the media buildings, occupied by a team from Sky News and other international broadcasters, being hit.

No one was injured in the attack, which happened about 7.15am (local time).

Oh noez, those evil jews not killing people!

mcgruff wrote:
Oh and killed a bunch of "sand thumping medieval savages". Or was it innocent women and children? It's so hard to tell them apart.

Indeed, the lack of distinguishable uniform human shielding around paramilitary targets always presents that kind of problem.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hm, lets see. Israel murdered the Palestinians, deported them, trampled on their rights - and those Palestinians who fight for the survival of their people are called 'terrorists', while the genocidals zionists who drop phosphor bombs on civilians are rightful and heroes.

If that does not make you sick to your stomach you must be either very sick, twisted by constant brainwashing or a complete asshole.

Or let me ask you this:

why were the russian partisans heroes, why were the resistance heroes but PLO and Hamas are terrorists?
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Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it funny that the israelites try to take over the media, espacially in an unrelated place like this, and that's what's making them to fail utterly and not getting any sympathy points.

Fact is, anyone has a right to live where they want, no one has the right to kill anyone and espacially not for religious reasons.

// oh, and since no one did it, yet, I'll pull a Godwin and say: Shitler.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
It's a war, not law enforcement, complete with organised military and paramilitary units armed with explosive ordinance from both ends crossing borders, not a trivial lone nutjob popping off rifle rounds. Ridiculous comparisons are just ridiculous. You can't just wilfully deny reality and pretend that there are no military conflicts in the world or that they're resolvable by libertarian dogma.

I reject the distinction. As I understand it, your argument is basically that harm to bystanders is acceptable in war because war is a special kind of conflict where harm to bystanders is acceptable. I don't believe in "special" kinds of conflict. This is because I don't believe in special kinds of people who can behave in ways that are clearly unethical for "ordinary" people. Stated differently, I don't believe that ethics get turned upside down when you put on a government-issued uniform.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sixty-seven people have been killed so far in Gaza - eleven members of a family in a single attack today, including five women and four children. Warships were shelling this densely-populated area intensively last night in an indiscriminate bombardment.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aidanjt wrote:
dmitchell wrote:
aidanjt wrote:
The difference is Israel's airstrikes are against paramilitary targets. Palestinian rockets are fired indiscriminately at Israeli townships and cities.

That's not a difference.

It's a significant difference. Anyone with any kind of moral backbone knows that intent means everything.

I agree.

Israel should make a deal though: they should let the Gaza strip become an independent country to be occupied by anyone who can prove scientifically beyond the shadow of a doubt they are at least 1/8th Canaanite (and everyone else must get the fuck out); in exchange Israel should be given back the West Bank, Jerusalem, and the entire Jordan River valley (i.e., the "East Bank" too). That would be a fair deal.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Sixty-seven people have been killed so far in Gaza - eleven members of a family in a single attack today, including five women and four children. Warships were shelling this densely-populated area intensively last night in an indiscriminate bombardment.

If warships were shelling a densely-populated area indiscriminately, there would be tens of thousands of dead, maybe even hundreds of thousands. You are using terminology you do not understand to talk about things you know nothing about.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Sixty-seven people have been killed so far in Gaza - eleven members of a family in a single attack today, including five women and four children. Warships were shelling this densely-populated area intensively last night in an indiscriminate bombardment.

If warships were shelling a densely-populated area indiscriminately, there would be tens of thousands of dead, maybe even hundreds of thousands. You are using terminology you do not understand to talk about things you know nothing about.


Sarajevo was sieged for almost 3 years, on average 329 shells fell on the city every day, with 3,777 on 22 July 1993. About 12.000 people got killed, with another 50.000 wounded. The city population at the start of the siege is estimated to have been 435,000.

That was as indiscriminate as it gets, artillery, katjushkas, snipers and mortars.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I agree.

Really? You agree that intent is everything? That nothing else matters except intent? I don't think you do.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The use of naval bombardment is clearly not consistent with the claims of carefully targeted attacks.

Not that we actually believed them in the first place.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
I agree.

Really? You agree that intent is everything? That nothing else matters except intent? I don't think you do.

Okay, I don't agree that intent is everything. I agree with his statement in general, with the caveat that intent is not literally "everything", but merely "of great importance in judging the morality of military actions.

I don't feel like getting into a 10-page discussion of the morality of military actions at the moment. I will only say that I have studied the subject quite a bit, have considered the Israeli-Gaza situation before, and I don't fault the Israelis. Among other things, I think they are victims of propaganda. A good example is people like mcgruff getting the nonsense he has in his head somewhere.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
The use of naval bombardment is clearly not consistent with the claims of carefully targeted attacks.

That's simply not true. That's like saying "punching someone is the same thing as flailing your fists blindly in a crowd". Naval weapons can be just as precise as any others. They can literally drop an artillery shell on your moving car or put a cruise missile through your bedroom window. They can also level a city block (or a city, for that matter). There is an infinite range of possibilities, and there is nothing characteristically inaccurate, arbitrary, or indiscriminate about naval gunfire or naval weapons in general.

What matters is whether it is observed fire or unobserved fire, the methods of targeting and observation used, and the volume and types of ordinance used. The Israelis have a broad range of "smart" weapons, just like we do, including laser- and gps-guided munitions. They have airborne observation and highly detailed, accurate intelligence. The fact that they've pounded on Gaza with hundreds of aircraft sorties and indirect fires, and have only killed a handful of innocents (which in itself is a miracle) is proof that what you were parroting is propaganda; there would be tens or hundreds of thousands dead.
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you're an idiot. Civilian deaths are not imaginary and they're not propaganda. They're happening every day.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thread seems to have run its course.
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