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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: It's been a while since we had a systemd rant, so... Reply with quote

As this was getting off-topic, split from start-stop-daemon.JRG

PaulBredbury wrote:
... Where quitting involves deleting /var/run/g15daemon.pid
Previously, g15daemon and start-stop-daemon would have been in a race to delete /var/run/g15daemon.pid ...
Just minutes away before everyone is changing to systemd as their init, at the end: Openrc developers fixed some long standing bugs? These were not qualifying openrc as robust as claimed:
- pid file inconsistencies (Do I have a valid dbus- , consolekit session?)
- crazy dependencies of the "net" keyword

(Getting away from these kind of silly hickups was my motivation to get systemd running. Not a faster boot.)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Just minutes away before everyone is changing to systemd as their init,

What planet are you on? No, everyone is not changing to systemd.
Quote:
at the end: Openrc developers fixed some long standing bugs?

What? Which bugs are you talking about? Please provide urls.

As for your frankly delusional idea that bugs are only getting fixed in openrc because of systemd.. LMAO.
Quote:
These were not qualifying openrc as robust as claimed:
- pid file inconsistencies (Do I have a valid dbus- , consolekit session?)

You mean relying on Lennartware gets you into difficulty? Yes, that is true, and has been consistently true for several years.
Quote:
- crazy dependencies of the "net" keyword

(Getting away from these kind of silly hickups was my motivation to get systemd running. Not a faster boot.)

Well openrc has always worked incredibly well for me. The only time I've had an issue is with something from Poettering, be that pulseaudio, avahi, consolekit, dbus (and its lovely xml files -- just how a system daemon should be configured :roll:), policykit, udev after he took it over.. Funny that everything else has worked so well.

Must be something to do with developers who quietly get on and do the work, instead of self-promotion. All Poettering's work has been shit imo, and all Linux users would have been a lot better off if he'd chosen a different career, afaic.
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systemd. It is a really ass pain

update - "a most excellent portage wrapper"

#friendly-coders -- We're still here for you™ ;)
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genstorm
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has Lennart fixed udev firmware loading yet?

And will pulseaudio now be deprecated too, since it was discovered it creates a 25ms audio latency compared to ALSA (5ms) - in favor of, let's say, audiokit? Which will later be deprecated and moved into systemd?
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
Has Lennart fixed udev firmware loading yet?

The kernel devs have gone ahead and changed that particular soiled diaper for him.
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

genstorm wrote:
And will pulseaudio now be deprecated too, since it was discovered it creates a 25ms audio latency compared to ALSA (5ms) - in favor of, let's say, audiokit? Which will later be deprecated and moved into systemd?

No, pulseaudio's impact on the audio latency will be lowered by... stuffing all the buffers into the kernel space. :lol:

On a side note, I use my HDA only for the output of my DE's sound events. So, last time I made my kernel, I decided I could easily lower the CONFIG_SND_HDA_PREALLOC_SIZE.
Learning a little about this facility, I discovered that the possibility to tune this value is following a request from... guess who... : Lennart !
Lennart who's pulsething needed much more that the default allocated value...

I always thought that if increasing buffer sizes to insane values makes things go better, then there must be something really wrong somewhere.
Then if you think that increasing buffer sizes to insane values is the solution of the problems... the somewhere... is... located... :twisted:

No really, this guy should concentrate on plasma applets and be kept as far as possible away from the kernel.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
No, pulseaudio's impact on the audio latency will be lowered by... stuffing all the buffers into the kernel space. :lol:

LOL.
Quote:
No really, this guy should concentrate on plasma applets and be kept as far as possible away from the kernel.

++
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 03, 2012 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt, that was to reduce power-consumption.

Now, no-one's ever asked me if I'm switching to systemd, funnily enough, and at this rate they never will. But if they did, I would say that I would rather check out s6 or runit.
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: It's been a while since we had a systemd rant, so... Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Just minutes away before everyone is changing to systemd as their init, at the end: Openrc developers fixed some long standing bugs?

ulenrich ... will this be yet another thread in which your claims are found to be false, and one in which once that falsity has been established you sneak back into the comfort of silence? Is it worth 'discussing' the subject under such circumstances, and wouldn't such a discussion generally result in somekind of admission, and clarification of, the facts, rather than the a restatement of previously countered claims? In short, why do you continue to raise an argument when you are not actually willing to discuss it, but rather opt out once the discussion fails to develop in your favour?

For my part its simply not worth putting in the effort, nothing will come of it but my having wasted time and energy countering your (often tenacious and shifting) argumentation.

ulenrich wrote:
(Getting away from these kind of silly hickups was my motivation to get systemd running. Not a faster boot.)

I see ... so when previously you we're bullet listing all the pro's of systemd, and all the "problems" it solves, this was just a smoke screen, really the issue was with openrc. Thats a change in tactic at least.

best ... khay
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hcaulfield57
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on how much launchd sucks, I can't believe that someone would make a clone of, aka systemd. Even the names are similar. Seriously though, who enjoys editing XML configuration files? I once tried to figure out what launchd was doing on my OS X laptop, and didn't even get that far. It seems to me that the stupid solutions tend to be ridiculously complicated, whereas the genius solutions are elegantly simple. The latter is the UNIX way.
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MustrumR
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hcaulfield57 wrote:
Based on how much launchd sucks, I can't believe that someone would make a clone of, aka systemd. Even the names are similar. Seriously though, who enjoys editing XML configuration files? I once tried to figure out what launchd was doing on my OS X laptop, and didn't even get that far. It seems to me that the stupid solutions tend to be ridiculously complicated, whereas the genius solutions are elegantly simple. The latter is the UNIX way.

I don't think systemd uses XML files.
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Gusar
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MustrumR wrote:
I don't think systemd uses XML files.

It doesn't. But we can't let pesky facts get in the way of a good rant (wow, is that an oxymoron :)), can we?
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think hcaulfield57 was talking about launchd, which does appear to have XML configuration files.

- John
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hcaulfield57
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:

I think hcaulfield57 was talking about launchd, which does appear to have XML configuration files.

Thanks, for the save there :) I actually just assumed that systemd used XML since launchd and SMF both use XML :oops:
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK... so I'll assume that semi-trolling is welcomed in this thread.

Tips and tricks for blocking systemd-udev in Gentoo :

1/ Pulseaudio stabilization blocks >=sys-fs/udev-188 stabilization
:idea: It seams reasonable to think that 2.1-r1 brings a comfortable load of serious regressions to report, doesn't it ?
Please feel free to contribute, I cannot, I never used it. :twisted:

2/ I found a serious bug that should be reported, I have some ideas on how to fix it but just... do not know where to report it :
The bug lies there : http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/systemd/index.xml
Quote:
1. Project Description
...
The main goals of the projects are:
...
to convince Gentoo developers to install systemd units with their packages.

Declaring auto-promotion amongst the goals of whatever project *is* a *serious* bug !

Of course... I can elaborate. :twisted:
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MustrumR
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:

2/ I found a serious bug that should be reported, I have some ideas on how to fix it but just... do not know where to report it :
The bug lies there : http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/systemd/index.xml
Quote:
1. Project Description
...
The main goals of the projects are:
...
to convince Gentoo developers to install systemd units with their packages.

Declaring auto-promotion amongst the goals of whatever project *is* a *serious* bug !

Of course... I can elaborate. :twisted:

Gentoo developers install OpenRC files with packages. Why should OpenRC be considered more important than systemd?
After all they can both be used for init. And Gentoo is about choice, right?
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt ...

didn't you mean "tips and tricks for systemd by stealth in Gentoo"?

3). bikesheding, and some outright hostility, wrt the inclusion of "udev-standalone"

4). seperate /usr as a supported configuration yet we still see things being pushed into /usr (13 Jul 2012) ... and then moved back (13 Jul 2012).

Paradox: "user choice" is used as the rational for systemd inclusion, but "user choice" is ultimately the loser as systemd is intent on domination via a coup d'main. I'm more and more inclined to see the response as inconsistant, unfocused, and mostly likely to result in accepting the "envitable"

... discours de la servitude volontaire ou le Contr'un!

best ... khay
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aCOSwt
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MustrumR wrote:
aCOSwt wrote:

2/ I found a serious bug that should be reported, I have some ideas on how to fix it but just... do not know where to report it :
The bug lies there : http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/base/systemd/index.xml
Quote:
1. Project Description
...
The main goals of the projects are:
...
to convince Gentoo developers to install systemd units with their packages.

Declaring auto-promotion amongst the goals of whatever project *is* a *serious* bug !

Of course... I can elaborate. :twisted:

Gentoo developers install OpenRC files with packages. Why should OpenRC be considered more important than systemd?
After all they can both be used for init. And Gentoo is about choice, right?

As Gusar already stated : This thread is a rant ! :wink:

More seriously, the bug I mention is a real fault from a communication standpoint.
Of course any project may organize its promotion. But this objective is to remain implicit. It must never be mentioned explicitly. Even less as part of a set of 3 goals.

Its also faulty on a reasoning standpoint : How can you xyzt-whatever-ize something including xyzt-whatever-izing in its own definition ?
You necessarily enter some endless re-entrance that only religions can afford.

Oh wait... would systemd be a religion ? :roll:
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MustrumR wrote:
Gentoo developers install OpenRC files with packages. Why should OpenRC be considered more important than systemd? After all they can both be used for init. And Gentoo is about choice, right?

MustrumR ... well, that term should be clarified, in any meaningfull sense of the word "choice" means a maintanance of freedom, it does not mean (to follow La Boétie) the contradiction involved in "voluntary servitude", such a "choice" would be absurd.

Now, you may not think that systemd is a big deal, its just a choice, but I challenge you to think about the wider picture. If you think that the fragmentation introduced by systemd (not only in terms of linux but other *nix variants) is somehow promoting "choice", or that systemd itself sees itself as a "choice" (note: "udev on non-systemd systems is in our eyes a dead end [...] I am looking forward to the day when we can drop that support entirely" .. Lennart Poettering), and that an init should be a required dependency (or in LP's words "blessed") for a DE, then your notion of "choice" is no more than a shotgun wedding.

best ... khay
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Oh wait... would systemd be a religion?

yes, instant nirvana ... only faster ;)
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is a Meta distribution. As systemd takes advantages of special Linux features it is incapable to be used with a BSD kernel. This might change as in the past Bsd has implemented hal for example (just to learn Hal was superceeded by udev).

@khayyam, the issue of the /usr move, to have the possibility of a read only full distribution software partition is cloud related, lead by commercial interests therefore. No special systemd requirement but systemd developers are payd by Red Hat.
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John R. Graham
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aCOSwt wrote:
Its also faulty on a reasoning standpoint : How can you xyzt-whatever-ize something including xyzt-whatever-izing in its own definition?
You necessarily enter some endless re-entrance that only religions can afford.
Now, now. Perhaps developers aren't always the best communicators but, if stated only slightly differently conceptually, would you think I was treading on dangerous near-religious ideological grounds? For instance,
  • We on the Gentoo Technology-X team believe that Technology-X has merit and would benefit Gentoo. To us, the obvious benefits are foo, bar, and baz. There are probably others.
  • Our goal is to integrate Technology-X seamlessly into the Gentoo distribution so that it is a viable alternative to Gentoo's current Technology-Y default.
  • By making a Technology-X transition seamless, we hope to encourage more Gentoo developers to use the Technology-X alternative with the ultimate goal of having Technology-X accepted and documented as an option alongside Technology-Y during a standard Gentoo Handbook install.
Personalities and technical merit aside, doesn't this sound like a reasonable and fine set of project goals? I see nothing particularly sinister or inconsistent on that project page. Perhaps not Pulitzer Prize material but, we're talking developers here. :wink:

- John
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ulenrich wrote:
Gentoo is a Meta distribution. As systemd takes advantages of special Linux features it is incapable to be used with a BSD kernel. This might change as in the past Bsd has implemented hal for example (just to learn Hal was superceeded by udev).

ulenrich ... again, an argument is structured like so: proposition => conclusion. A standwich is two peices of bread with a filling. As cakes are filled with cream they are more fattening. There are some cakes that are less fattening than others.

Anyhow, you make it sound as though init somehow *needs* to take advantage of special features ... of course its a new improved formular, now with 20% more betterness.

ulenrich wrote:
@khayyam, the issue of the /usr move, to have the possibility of a read only full distribution software partition is cloud related, lead by commercial interests therefore. No special systemd requirement but systemd developers are payd by Red Hat.

If you had bothered to respond to what I wrote rather than started off on another of your digressions I might be inclined to respond in kind ... but here we have another of your "discussions" self constructed in your very own echo chamber.

best ... khay
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khayyam
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John R. Graham wrote:
  • We on the Gentoo Technology-X team believe that Technology-X has merit and would benefit Gentoo. To us, the obvious benefits are foo, bar, and baz. There are probably others.
  • Our goal is to integrate Technology-X seamlessly into the Gentoo distribution so that it is a viable alternative to Gentoo's current Technology-Y default.
  • By making a Technology-X transition seamless, we hope to encourage more Gentoo developers to use the Technology-X alternative with the ultimate goal of having Technology-X accepted and documented as an option alongside Technology-Y during a standard Gentoo Handbook install.

John ... the obvious falacy here being that Technology-X has as its modus operandi the result: Technology-X = Technology (tout court). The very idea that X and Y will co-exist is not something that is consistant with X ... "because they have not adopted systemd they will have to continue to develop and support infrastructure [...] that is officially orphaned by its developers and maintainers", and lo, P now has X as a "blessed dependency", etc, etc.

best ... khay
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ulenrich
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@khayyam
I just answered this question:
MustrumR wrote:
[Why should OpenRC be considered more important than systemd?

with
ulenrich wrote:
Gentoo is a Meta distribution. As systemd takes advantages of special Linux features it is incapable to be used with a BSD kernel. This might change as in the past Bsd has implemented hal for example (just to learn Hal was superceeded by udev).


Sooo
khayyam wrote:
ulenrich ... again, an argument is structured like so: proposition => conclusion.

I might have forgotten the obvious conclusion: Yes, openrc is needed ....

You will not educate me to your formula, because I see a forum thread as a whole piece of art with allowed incompleteness of my own text alone. But I should have done a citation of MustrumR, because you and others have been too busy in the time I edited the answer ....
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woo, gossip 8)
Quote:
We are getting ready to launch a new Gentoo project in #gentoo-udev.

I knew it! Gentoo is moving to systemd, and making Lennart an honorary member of the Council, together with a Lifetime Achievement award. (Just fanning the flames.)
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