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patrix_neo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:51 pm    Post subject: My last word. Reply with quote

I recently saw a deutche sheisse movie...No, not really, but about altruism.
It was based upon this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave

I find it interesting how things like this can happen. As I can see it: It is something about us we don't like to know about our self.
I hate it of course...

Just for sharing pleasure:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipzR9bhei_o

I do hate U-toob, but it has it's perks.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mimicry is hugely important to humans. We live in complex social groups and watching what everybody else does and then doing that, or watching what everyone else thinks and then thinking that, is the main way we learn how to fit in. The instinct to go with the flow was burned into our DNA hundreds of thousands of years ago because the consequences of failing to fit in could be severe. Exclusion from the group could be a death sentence for a member of a small tribe of hunter-gatherers.

That's all fine so long as good ideas are fed into the system. However, it is also very easy to feed in bad ones - like fascism - instead. It's no accident that one of the first things fascists will try to establish is a heightened sense of "them" and "us", thus raising the stakes for anyone who tries to challenge the group. It's a lot easier to be laughed at and lose a little status than it is to be called a fifth columnist or a traitor and end up in a gulag.

PS: I saw that too - good movie.
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patrix_neo
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do like your thinking. But...
mcgruff wrote:

n. The instinct to go with the flow was burned into our DNA hundreds of thousands of years ago
PS: I saw that too - good movie.


I cannot see it being about will or thought. Evolution maybe...
Yeah, the movies like this makes you think. Gotta love those.

[edit] I am not needy, just have to clarify some...The evolution part, nature is not a moral ground. By that said, if people feel stronger, they get better. ( yeah, It is scary )
I can see the scenario. Can you?
[ps] mcgruff: sorry for my agenda. I did need to get this off my chest, and I used you there...
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
The instinct to go with the flow was burned into our DNA hundreds of thousands of years ago because the consequences of failing to fit in could be severe.

Sweet. I'm a mutant. Watching the masses all go the same way for something naturally makes me wary of it. Then again, this could just be another stage in development/evolution/whatever because society seems to be getting progressively dumber.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Mimicry is hugely important to humans. We live in complex social groups and watching what everybody else does and then doing that, or watching what everyone else thinks and then thinking that, is the main way we learn how to fit in. The instinct to go with the flow was burned into our DNA hundreds of thousands of years ago because the consequences of failing to fit in could be severe. Exclusion from the group could be a death sentence for a member of a small tribe of hunter-gatherers.

I'm tired of listening to you repeatedly make this assertion that collective-cooperative behavior is responsible for the evolutionary success of Humans. It's not. I already mentioned to you that there are many other species far more "social" (i.e., collectivist-cooperative) than H. Sapiens, and informed you that your thinking is Anthropocentric, and that we are not the most "successful and powerful species", as you put it. Now I"ll add that Humans are not by nature, all collectivist and cluster-fucky like you'd like to think in your little Marxist wet dream. We evolved specifically to be "social, somewhat collectivist cooperative, and somewhat individualist-competitive" for a reason, and our more collectivist-cooperative cousins did not (or if they did become hominids, they died off).

Human ancestors split off from a common ancestor with our closest cousins, Chimpanzees, millions (not hundreds of thousands) of years ago. Those cousins we split off from later split further into Common Chimpanzees and Bonobos (divided by the Congo River, and evolving according to their respective environments). Bonobos, still swinging in the trees in the jungle area South of the Congo, are far more collectivist-cooperative than Humans or Chimps, and are successful only in that limited environment without scarcity of resources. If hominids ever evolved with these traits of Bonobos, they died off. Chimps, and the hominids that successfully evolved into H. Sapiens North of the river, had to struggle more.

Recent full genetic sequencing of all three closely-related apes shows both Chimps and Bonobos to have 98.7% genetic commonality with Humans, and to have 99.6% commonality to each other. We are very closely related to both, and they are even more closely related to each other.

However, the Chimps have small section of their genome that's more like Human DNA than Bonobo. Meanwhile, the Bonobos have different small section of their genome that's more like Human DNA than Chimpanzee. We don't know what these sections of DNA do.

Chimpanzees and Bonobos were once both considered Chimpanzees and look very similar. The main differences between them, when compared to humans is that, while all three are social and cooperative to some extent, the Bonobos are much more collectivist-cooperative, while the Chimps and Humans both are significantly more individualist-competitive. Also, in comparison to Humans, while all three have sex for both reproduction and pleasure, the sexual behavior of Chimps is less frequent and seems more socially significant, while Bonobos and Humans fuck like bunnies for any reason whatsoever.

Bonobos never really fight over anything and resolve conflict peacefully. Humans and chimps both compete for resources, will fight violently over territory, mates, food, social standing, etc., and will kill each other. Bonobos have never been known to kill each other. Experimentally it has been shown that Bonobos will go to lengths chimps will not in order to share food with another who has none.

So the behavioral evidence suggests that the genetic commonality exclusive to Humans and Chimps is responsible for increased individualist-competitive behavior, while the genetic commonality exclusive to Humans and Bonobos is responsible for sexual behavior. So, nature has had millions of years to produce an even more highly collectivist-cooperative Homo communistus, but if it did, that sucker is long dead, having died off or fallen victim to the more individualistic, competitive, violent, and territorially predatory behavior of H. Sapiens.
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL - so biology is accused of communism now? You really are special. No truth is too great that it can't be trampled over by a small man.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
LOL - so biology is accused of communism now? You really are special. No truth is too great that it can't be trampled over by a small man.

I never said biology is communist or socialist -- you did, when you have repeatedly suggested the idea that we owe the "success" of our species to having evolved an extremely high natural tendency toward collectivist-cooperative behavior.

The fact is that evolution of those traits did happen, and the result is happily picking lice out of each others hair in the trees South of the Congo while they slowly go extinct.
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Last edited by Bones McCracker on Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jesus this is painful. I'm tired too. I'm tired of your arrogance, your ignorant opinions, and your patronising attitude. Never did a man have less to be patronising about.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it sucks to be wrong. Great argument.

@patrix_neo, please pardon the disruption; I just couldn't stomach any more of that pseudo-scientific bullshit.
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Muso
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Mimicry is hugely important to humans. We live in complex social groups and watching what everybody else does and then doing that, or watching what everyone else thinks and then thinking that, is the main way we learn how to fit in.


Serious question... how old are you?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Serious question... what's it like to be so damned ignorant? Sneering at ideas means you'll never learn anything.
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notageek
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean like this guy?
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McGruff
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wrong thread for the VP debate but why is it wrong to laugh at Lyin' Ryan? He is kinda funny.
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Old School
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Muso wrote:
mcgruff wrote:
Mimicry is hugely important to humans. We live in complex social groups and watching what everybody else does and then doing that, or watching what everyone else thinks and then thinking that, is the main way we learn how to fit in.


Serious question... how old are you?

My sig will give you a rough estimate. :P
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgruff wrote:
Serious question... what's it like to be so damned ignorant? Sneering at ideas means you'll never learn anything.

Wow. What's with the blatant personal attack? He didn't do anything to deserve that. What's your problem? :?
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patrix_neo
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

@patrix_neo, please pardon the disruption; I just couldn't stomach any more of that pseudo-scientific bullshit.


Nothing to excuse. I do love debates you and mcgruff does. As I have said before, sometimes you two gets entangled in your presteige and no one wants to let go.
Then I cry.
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