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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 137
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 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Can you scientifically explain what created it all? Logic dictates that you must accept the possibility that since you cannot, you could be wrong. |
You would not expect me to prove that the Universe wasn't created by Superman so why do I have to admit to the possibility of one or more gods?
Logic dictates that "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent". Fundamentally, it's a bad question, but even if we do find some kind of mystery you can't just grasp at gods as the explanation unless there is proof. It does not help us understand anything - in fact it slams the door shut on any further attempts to explore that aspect of reality. Also, as Dawkins argued in The God Delusion, a being that could create something as vast and magnificent as the universe must itself be even vaster and more magnificent. Thus, all you have done is replace one difficult question with an even harder one: who created your gods?
At some point, after a particular train of thought keeps leading you into absurdities, you have to accept that it's a busted flush.
| pjp wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | | although plenty that we are serial creators of gods, regularly inventing whole new pantheons of miscellaneous, contradictory entities with super powers, like a mad DC Comics writer on amphetamines. |
What? |
How many gods are there, or will be? The idea of beings with super powers gives rise to endless variations on the cargo cult theme and it's blatantly obvious that every last one of them was made up. The complete lack of evidence is one clue.
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Last edited by mcgruff on Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:28 am; edited 2 times in total |
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aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Wow. Except that even physicists don't claim they can explain it. |
What are you talking about? There are very sound theories which explicitly explore the initial conditions of the universe. The point is we have the *means* to reask and properly address the questions which were earlier 'answered' with mysticism and supernatural dismissals.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| aCOSwt wrote: | | Pfffffff! For the nth time aidanjt : Yet another... belief ! |
I'm hoping this is sarcasm, it's hard to tell on the internet, remember? 
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16029
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:43 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | Logic dictates that "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent". |
And yet, you go on and on and on.
@aidanjt: Last I heard, physicists did not claim to have an explanation prior to the Big Bang, etc. If they've changed, so be it. Last I recall (within a year or so) was they found something to get closer to the Big Bang, but that was it.
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008 |
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nomilieu
n00b
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: |
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What's the deal with agnostics?
Of course you can't prove there are no gods, but that doesn't mean you have to take a neutral stance.
You either believe in magic or you don't. Are you really that much on the fence about it? |
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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | mcgruff wrote: | | Logic dictates that "whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent". |
And yet, you go on and on and on. |
Yeah. For two whole posts.
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Old School
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 231
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:14 am Post subject: |
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| charly wrote: | | Old School wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | Old School wrote: | | I have no idea what GOD is, but I believe the reality we know just did not happen spontaneously. Just too many fortunate coincidences. |
fortunate for us, but unfortunate for the millions of species extinct or never having the chance to live. |
There were too many fortunate coincidences before our solar system was even formed. |
Fortunate Son |
I hear you brother.
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I am not young enough to know everything.
- Oscar Wilde |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| nomilieu wrote: | | What's the deal with agnostics? |
Intellectual honesty.
| nomilieu wrote: | Of course you can't prove there are no gods, but that doesn't mean you have to take a neutral stance.
You either believe in magic or you don't. Are you really that much on the fence about it? |
Well, I'm essentially non-theistic, but I cannot deny the possibility of a prime mover. We're I forced, at gun point, to pick a theism over agnosticism, I'd settle with deism.
Mysticism is something I wholeheartedly believe in because I've had mystical experiences. But whether or not there is a prime mover is something I cannot claim.
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If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
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aCOSwt
Advocate
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2035
Location: Between the keyboard and the chair
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | aCOSwt wrote: | | Pfffffff! For the nth time aidanjt : Yet another... belief ! |
I'm hoping this is sarcasm. |
I am afraid it is not.
I have already tried to demonstrate this in several threads and apparently... failed. 
Most thinkers, who actually did their best to extract us from the bronze age that you give the impression to strongly condemn in order to keep us into, have demonstrated this long time ago.
They apparently failed too.
(Hume if you absolutely want to read in English, but of course Nietzsche :
"Heißt das aber nicht, genauer besehen: erst wenn die Überzeugung aufhört, Überzeugung zu sein, darf sie Eintritt in die Wissenschaft erlangen? Finge nicht die Zucht des wissenschaftlichen Geistes damit an, sich keine Überzeugungen mehr zu gestatten?... So steht es wahrscheinlich: nur bleibt übrig zu fragen, ob nicht, damit diese Zucht anfangen könne, schon eine Überzeugung da sein müsse, und zwar eine so gebieterische und bedingungslose, daß sie alle andern Überzeugungen sich zum Opfer bringt. Man sieht, auch die Wissenschaft ruht auf einem Glauben, es gibt gar keine »voraussetzungslose« Wissenschaft."
And several others in between and after.
So please, if your intention is to honestly contribute to our escape from the Plato's cavern, stop displaying your own religion.
I am also afraid to consider that, despite writing the contrary, no contributor in this thread is truely not-religious.
The only escape road from the bronze age is Nihilism, and, from the contribution I can read on OTW, it is more than obvious that no contributor is actually nihlist.
Of course of BTW and as usual : Criticism intended (meant as in some pjp's thread around) but absolutely no disrespect meant.
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In theory there are no differences between theory and practice. In practice, there are.
Don't try to understand my posts. Immanuel Kant never did, he thinks that only music and laughter do not have to mean anything. |
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aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| aCOSwt wrote: | | I am afraid it is not. |
Ok, then I guess you missed the first 400 years of physics research. There's no belief involved at all. It's all hard graft knowledge acquired over centuries.
| aCOSwt wrote: | Most thinkers, who actually did their best to extract us from the bronze age that you give the impression to strongly condemn in order to keep us into, have demonstrated this long time ago.
They apparently failed too.
(Hume if you absolutely want to read in English, but of course Nietzsche :
"Heißt das aber nicht, genauer besehen: erst wenn die Überzeugung aufhört, Überzeugung zu sein, darf sie Eintritt in die Wissenschaft erlangen? Finge nicht die Zucht des wissenschaftlichen Geistes damit an, sich keine Überzeugungen mehr zu gestatten?... So steht es wahrscheinlich: nur bleibt übrig zu fragen, ob nicht, damit diese Zucht anfangen könne, schon eine Überzeugung da sein müsse, und zwar eine so gebieterische und bedingungslose, daß sie alle andern Überzeugungen sich zum Opfer bringt. Man sieht, auch die Wissenschaft ruht auf einem Glauben, es gibt gar keine »voraussetzungslose« Wissenschaft."
And several others in between and after.
So please, if your intention is to honestly contribute to our escape from the Plato's cavern, stop displaying your own religion.
I am also afraid to consider that, despite writing the contrary, no contributor in this thread is truely not-religious.
The only escape road from the bronze age is Nihilism, and, from the contribution I can read on OTW, it is more than obvious that no contributor is actually nihlist.
Of course of BTW : Criticism intended (meant as in some pjp's thread around) but absolutely no disrespect meant. |
The bare assertions of 'thinkers' are worthless. That's the difference between science and regular philosophy. One is hard earned knowledge, the other is armchair pseudo-intellectualism. Hence why the latter are completely and utterly wrong so frequently.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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aCOSwt
Advocate
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2035
Location: Between the keyboard and the chair
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | The bare assertions of 'thinkers' are worthless. |
What I quoted from Nietzsche is not a bare assertion.
The last sentence is nothing but the purely logical / reasonable conclusion of the paragraph, itself logically deduced from a good hundred preceding pages.
| aidanjt wrote: | | That's the difference between science and regular philosophy. |
Do you mean you put Nietzsche's work in regular-philosophy ?  
Well... well... ermm... I might well have missed the first 400 years of physics... (I am not that old...  ) and if you tell me that I missed something ignoring the work of so-called scientists who achieved their entire work following a vision they had, well... erm.... erm... well... fair enough.
However, you probably missed the last 200 years of cognitive-sciences.
Of course... | aidanjt wrote: | | Hence why the latter are completely and utterly wrong so frequently. |
This is a bare assertion.
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In theory there are no differences between theory and practice. In practice, there are.
Don't try to understand my posts. Immanuel Kant never did, he thinks that only music and laughter do not have to mean anything. |
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 8
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| aCOSwt wrote: | I am also afraid to consider that, despite writing the contrary, no contributor in this thread is truely not-religious.
The only escape road from the bronze age is Nihilism, and, from the contribution I can read on OTW, it is more than obvious that no contributor is actually nihlist. |
Not really true. I regard every "conclusion" about unknown as pure ego construct. Ego cannot cope with open-ended. |
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aCOSwt
Advocate
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2035
Location: Between the keyboard and the chair
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | aCOSwt wrote: | I am also afraid to consider that, despite writing the contrary, no contributor in this thread is truely not-religious.
The only escape road from the bronze age is Nihilism, and, from the contribution I can read on OTW, it is more than obvious that no contributor is actually nihlist. |
Not really true. I regard every "conclusion" about unknown as pure ego construct. Ego cannot cope with open-ended. |
YESSSS !
You get it Prenj !
And, I would even say that in a first approximation, you are correct.
(Well, I mean what you write is correct, I cannot of course tell anything regarding your personal attitude)
What you write correctly suggests that existentialism could be seen as an ? / THE ? alternative to nihilism as an escape road from Plato's cavern.
XXth century famous writers did consider that too.
However, if you can prove this for you here and now, trying to prove this more universally just leads to yet another deadlock.
So... well played anyway... you are indeed correct... from a personal attitude standpoint.
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In theory there are no differences between theory and practice. In practice, there are.
Don't try to understand my posts. Immanuel Kant never did, he thinks that only music and laughter do not have to mean anything. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | I'm agnostic. I can't honestly say I know for sure there is, or isn't, a deity. I hold the possibility of a prime mover, but not use that possibility in regards to my moral code. |
I am a little more atheist than that. I don't say it is impossible that there is a prime mover (but I do say that *if* there is, we sure don't know anything about it and claims that it monitors who I sleep with are utter crap), just so unlikely that I am happy simply stating there isn't. just like I can't say with absolute certainty the yeti does not exist, for everyday use I will say it doesn't. |
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aCOSwt
Advocate
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2035
Location: Between the keyboard and the chair
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | just like I can't say with absolute certainty the yeti does not exist, for everyday use I will say it doesn't. |
/me would have sworn the yeti had registered here as Boneckracker...
_________________
In theory there are no differences between theory and practice. In practice, there are.
Don't try to understand my posts. Immanuel Kant never did, he thinks that only music and laughter do not have to mean anything. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Old School wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | wow. 85% not religious? this must be the largest concentration of atheists outside of weareatheists.com. |
Not religious does not equal non belief. |
indeed. my oops. |
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nomilieu
n00b
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | Well, I'm essentially non-theistic, but I cannot deny the possibility of a prime mover. We're I forced, at gun point, to pick a theism over agnosticism, I'd settle with deism. |
There's nothing wrong with deism. The claims of both it and atheism are unprovable (while a traditional deity might stop for a visit to prove some theism), and yet both are reasonable worldviews (in my opinion).
I just figured that most people would have a suspicion one way or the other, rather than having shoulders ashrug in the matter. Afterall, even if you can never know the truth, there is a truth about the existence of gods.
| Muso wrote: | | Mysticism is something I wholeheartedly believe in because I've had mystical experiences. But whether or not there is a prime mover is something I cannot claim. |
That's the part where I get suspicious, as I've never had a mystical experience.
That's an argument Christians have used on me when we've discussed their god. They'll stagger a bit in the face of evidence, but then they come back describing a personal mystical experience where their god revealed himself to them.
At that point, I listen, smile, reiterate that I've never had such an experience, and offer to get us a couple of cold ones. |
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ak47gen
n00b
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 36
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nomilieu
n00b
Joined: 22 Nov 2011
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| ak47gen wrote: | | I am an atheist that refers to myself as an agnostic. |
It sounds then like you're just avoiding bad press rather than making a philosophical statement.
There are also quite a lot of extreme theists that make their respective faiths look bad. |
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ak47gen
n00b
Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 36
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| nomilieu wrote: | | ak47gen wrote: | | I am an atheist that refers to myself as an agnostic. |
It sounds then like you're just avoiding bad press rather than making a philosophical statement.
There are also quite a lot of extreme theists that make their respective faiths look bad. |
Benefits of being neutral, is you can hear all the stupid things around you and make a better choice from that. |
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eccerr0r
Advocate
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 2995
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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I took the red pill...
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Core-i7-2700K@4.1GHz/8GB RAM/180GB SSD/Intel HD3000 graphics
What the heck am I advocating? |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: |
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what is this claim about there are many extreme atheists? who? dawkins? he lives in a theocracy and so has an uphill battle. |
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BoneKracker
Veteran
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Posts: 1480
Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:19 am Post subject: |
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| aCOSwt wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | just like I can't say with absolute certainty the yeti does not exist, for everyday use I will say it doesn't. |
/me would have sworn the yeti had registered here as Boneckracker... |
I am not a Yeti. I am merely an atheist who recognizes how little we really know, unlike the sophomoric, pseudoscience supplicants in here who wallow in ignorance of the fact that humanity's comprehension of reality is but nascent.
On the grand scale of all humanity will someday learn, and measured in terms of answering the important questions, we today are virtually indistinguishable from the flat earth alchemists of history -- particularly those many of us who simply do not know what they do not know.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
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mcgruff
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 28 Dec 2004
Posts: 137
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
Na na nan na
BAATMAAAAAAAAAN!!
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audiodef
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