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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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 Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
We already have taxes on gasoline, and we recently voted to increase them by about 40% to fund transportation infrastructure. We also have phenomenally huge and ever-increasing taxes on cigarettes, and you know what? Smoking rates among teens have been going up lately. What has actually worked has been education as to the health hazards, which reduced the smoking rate by half.
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right. so i guess you guys are just flush with cash, no? couldn't use a few extra at this point in history?
smoking rates for teens may be going up, but that is after years upon years of decline. |
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | @juniper:
I am opposed to most laws, not all. Nannystate = bad. That pretty much sums it up. Another would be the KISS principle. Unnecessary complexity increases waste, etc., etc.
As for social engineering and capital crimes, I've already addressed that. I personally don't think of that as social engineering. Rather it is the "glue" that keeps a society functional. At a minimum, there is a pretty significant difference between the size of my beverage and whether or not murder is allowed. Individual responsibility and personal freedom. My freedom ends where yours begins. I can't physically harm you without provocation. That would extend to me stealing money from you.
Yes, it is difficult to be a parent. "No" and moderation. Don't make it forbidden and evil (I'm sure you know this). Otherwise, life isn't supposed to be easy.
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that's an extreme example. littering fines are another. |
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BoneKracker
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:59 am Post subject: |
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[quote="juniper"] | BoneKracker wrote: |
Your logic fails; I can say the same thing:
"Punishing people with fat taxes? That's the dumbest idea ever. If you think taking money away from some guy who is 350 lbs is going to work when 350 lbs isn't incentive enough, you are dreamland." |
the rise in tax is supposed to change behaviour. Telling people that their health premiums are going to go up unless they diet won't work. Why? because if they fail to meet the rise in premiums their health cover gets taken away. that isn't going to solve the problem. however, if people can't pay for the rise in gas prices, they will walk, bike, run, or take public transport all of which are better for you. that is the point of the rise in prices. not to make you thin by taking your health care away, but by taking your car away. | Quote: |
Oh, okay. I see what your'e saying. Both actions would share the financial punishment, but preventing fat people from driving causes them to get more exercise.
That's ridiculous. Can you show me a study correlating car ownership with obesity? 
If gas is too expensive, they find a way to ride something else. They car pool, they get on a bus, they get on a train, they take a taxi. Maybe a small number who live the right distance from work and in a suitable environment change to riding a bike, when the weather permits. I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's a valid approach.
| juniper wrote: | | What's "going on elsewhere" is other countries are starting to recognize their own emerging obesity epidemics. It's not like any of them have some magic government policy that "works"; this is an emerging social problem fueled by sedentary high-tech lifestyles and the abundance of food (increasingly unhealthy food) in developed countries. |
be honest. they are not starting to recognize the same problem. they are in far better shape. |
I stand by my statement.
| Quote: | | A WHO report on obesity recently declared the problem epidemic in Europe, with Romania and the former Yugoslavia leading the pack. |
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC524938/
Keep in mind that was written eight years ago, and the situation has grown worse.
This other paper was written seven years ago by the IZA (institute for the study of labor) in Bonn. It talks about how there has long been awareness of a growing obesity epidemic in the U.S., but that it has now become a "Pan-European epidemic and at least 135 million EU citizens are affected" (that was in 2005). It says the problem hasn't been analyzed as much in Europe, probably due to lack of suitable data at the individual level. It concludes that Europe has a rapidly growing problem, although it has not yet caught up to the U.S.
The WHO website says: | Quote: | | Obesity is one of the greatest public health challenges of the 21st century. Its prevalence has tripled in many countries of the WHO European Region since the 1980s |
| Quote: | - The worldwide prevalence of obesity nearly doubled between 1980 and 2008. According to country estimates for 2008, over 50% of both men and women in the WHO European Region were overweight, and roughly 23% of women and 20% of men were obese.
- Based on the latest estimates in European Union countries, overweight affects 30-70% and obesity affects 10-30% of adults.
- Estimates of the number of overweight infants and children in the WHO European Region rose steadily from 1990 to 2008. Over 60% of children who are overweight before puberty will be overweight in early adulthood. Childhood obesity is strongly associated with risk factors for cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, orthopaedic problems, mental disorders, underachievement in school and lower self-esteem.
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http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-do/health-topics/noncommunicable-diseases/obesity/facts-and-figures
| Quote: | | Within Western Europe, there are marked differences in obesity rates from country to country. In 2008, for example, average BMI in the U.K. was among the highest in Western Europe—27.4 in men and 26.9 in women. France and Switzerland, meanwhile, had mean BMIs that were far lower—25.9 and 26.2 in men, and 24.8 and 24.1 in women, respectively. (1) The U.K.’s obesity rates have risen by about a percentage point per year since the mid-1990s, and in 2009, about 25 percent of U.K. adults were obese and 57 percent were overweight. |
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-trends/obesity-rates-worldwide/index.html
In particular, among all the other countries, the U.K. is not far behind the U.S. We are also discovering that measurement error is part of the problem. The only countries to report medically-determine numbers (from doctors) are the U.S., U.K., and Australia (who comprise half of the top six countries). All of the other countries' data is coming from surveys where people report their own numbers. This is one of the reasons there is an obesity "epidemic", because as attention is being focused on this issue, actual scientific measurements are taking place.
Trivia: among all the demographics measured by Nationmaster, obesity rates correlate most closely with "teenage pregnancy and birth rate" and "number of secure servers per capita".
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-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
If gas is too expensive, they find a way to ride something else. They car pool, they get on a bus, they get on a train, they take a taxi. Maybe a small number who live the right distance from work and in a suitable environment change to riding a bike, when the weather permits. I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's a valid approach. |
all of which are better for you. Keep in mind that mind boggling small number of steps many people take per day. you could double that by taking public transport.
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In particular, among all the other countries, the U.K. is not far behind the U.S. We are also discovering that measurement error is part of the problem. The only countries to report medically-determine numbers (from doctors) are the U.S., U.K., and Australia (who comprise half of the top six countries). All of the other countries' data is coming from surveys where people report their own numbers. This is one of the reasons there is an obesity "epidemic", because as attention is being focused on this issue, actual scientific measurements are taking place.
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by the number you give in the harvard article, the obesity rate is 50% higher in the UK than in the US (25% vs 36%). I wouldn't call that "not far behind". that is waaaaay behind and the UK is the worst nation in Europe. Not saying it isn't a problem here, but we are far behind. |
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BoneKracker
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
If gas is too expensive, they find a way to ride something else. They car pool, they get on a bus, they get on a train, they take a taxi. Maybe a small number who live the right distance from work and in a suitable environment change to riding a bike, when the weather permits. I see what you're saying, but I don't think it's a valid approach. |
all of which are better for you. Keep in mind that mind boggling small number of steps many people take per day. you could double that by taking public transport.
| Quote: |
In particular, among all the other countries, the U.K. is not far behind the U.S. We are also discovering that measurement error is part of the problem. The only countries to report medically-determine numbers (from doctors) are the U.S., U.K., and Australia (who comprise half of the top six countries). All of the other countries' data is coming from surveys where people report their own numbers. This is one of the reasons there is an obesity "epidemic", because as attention is being focused on this issue, actual scientific measurements are taking place.
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by the number you give in the harvard article, the obesity rate is 50% higher in the UK than in the US (25% vs 36%). I wouldn't call that "not far behind". that is waaaaay behind and the UK is the worst nation in Europe. Not saying it isn't a problem here, but we are far behind. |
I suppose that depends on whether you see the britches as half full or half empty. Americans are, on average, obviously and significantly more overweight. What I said was that Europe now has the same problem and is catching up. According to those reports I posted links to, the obesity rate in the U.S. has doubled since the 1970s, and the obesity rate in Europe has tripled since the 1980s.
It's a rapidly growing problem in Canada too, and it's not just the blubber-eating Inuit.
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-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
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