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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:23 am Post subject: mouths vs flesh to feed: global obesity. |
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America is number one! but we are all getting fatter.
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"When people think about environmental sustainability, they immediately focus on population. Actually, when it comes down to it - it's not how many mouths there are to feed, it's how much flesh there is on the planet." |
should you really be trying to lower the price of gasoline? |
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pjp
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| Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: Re: mouths vs flesh to feed: global obesity. |
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Because despite what everyone claims, they really want to be more like us. Witness France's recent love affair with "truck" food.
| juniper wrote: | | should you really be trying to lower the price of gasoline? |
Yes, because of the economic damage caused by excessively high prices. Exercise is a separate issue.
It is not viable for me to replace biking/walking with 99.999% of activities I currently engage in by automobile. Public transportation would consume too much of my already severely limited free time.
Side note, I like the CR-Z (shame its a Honda), but it is $20k and only gets ~39mpg. (My '92 Civic got ~44mpg highway). I think it lacks AWD, but not certain.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: Re: mouths vs flesh to feed: global obesity. |
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| juniper wrote: | America is number one! but we are all getting fatter.
| Quote: |
"When people think about environmental sustainability, they immediately focus on population. Actually, when it comes down to it - it's not how many mouths there are to feed, it's how much flesh there is on the planet." |
should you really be trying to lower the price of gasoline? |
I read some sci-fi story once where humanity shrank itself to deal with the population and resource issues. I think they got eaten by cats or something.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
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juniper
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Joined: 22 Oct 2004
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:54 am Post subject: Re: mouths vs flesh to feed: global obesity. |
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| pjp wrote: | Because despite what everyone claims, they really want to be more like us. Witness France's recent love affair with "truck" food.
| juniper wrote: | | should you really be trying to lower the price of gasoline? |
Yes, because of the economic damage caused by excessively high prices. Exercise is a separate issue.
It is not viable for me to replace biking/walking with 99.999% of activities I currently engage in by automobile. Public transportation would consume too much of my already severely limited free time.
Side note, I like the CR-Z (shame its a Honda), but it is $20k and only gets ~39mpg. (My '92 Civic got ~44mpg highway). I think it lacks AWD, but not certain. |
well, that is a great reason for YOU not to want gas prices to go up, but that isn't a good argument for policy. Like all things, the market will adjust. goods that are gas intensive will rise in price or be reduced. The "damage" is really adjustment.
exercise isn't a separate issue. They have (duh) found a correlation between gas consumption and obesity. |
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Muso
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:14 am Post subject: |
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Here's the only reason you'll ever need. Everything should be as cheap as possible.
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ratmonkey
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Joined: 13 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:51 am Post subject: |
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Haha! Silly BBC. Re-sort the data in the article based on percent of the population and suddenly the UK jumps up from 7th spot to the 4th.
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% Fatties
United States 12.71%
Egypt 10.00%
Argentina 9.29%
United Kingdom 7.55%
Germany 6.90%
Mexico 6.85%
Turkey 5.10%
Russian Federation 4.92%
Iran 4.62%
Brazil 3.48%
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | Here's the only reason you'll ever need. Everything should be as cheap as possible. |
that is also not a good reason. Don't forget to consume all that gas, you have to build roads, parking etc and that is usually done with tax payer money. Furthermore, gasoline pricing is complicated as well, since it benefits from all sorts of hidden subsidies. The price is so far from what the "free market" would set. |
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| ratmonkey wrote: | Haha! Silly BBC. Re-sort the data in the article based on percent of the population and suddenly the UK jumps up from 7th spot to the 4th.
| Code: |
% Fatties
United States 12.71%
Egypt 10.00%
Argentina 9.29%
United Kingdom 7.55%
Germany 6.90%
Mexico 6.85%
Turkey 5.10%
Russian Federation 4.92%
Iran 4.62%
Brazil 3.48%
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of course. total numbers of fat people is a stupid stat. percentages please! interesting about the middle east. gas subsidies galore there. |
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nomilieu
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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People aren't fat because they drive around instead of walking, running, biking, or whatever.
People are fat because they work in cubicles all day and then snack on the couch in the evenings.
Then again, I may be sensitive about gas prices since I don't live very close to work. Increased gas prices fuck with my well-being, as it digs noticably into my monthly funds. |
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ichbinsisyphos
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Thats not number of fatties. Thats the number of people that could be fed with what the fatties eat to much or some similar weird idiot statistic. The actual percentage of people with BMI > 30 is around 30% in the US. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | Thats not number of fatties. Thats the number of people that could be fed with what the fatties eat to much or some similar weird idiot statistic. The actual percentage of people with BMI > 30 is around 30% in the US. |
Last I heard, the forecast was that the percentage "overweight" (whatever that means) is approaching 40-something percent (that might have been limited to those under age 20). However, I do believe this is a global trend (where food isn't scarce), and that it's more driven by sedentary lifestyles, hedonistic values, and in general, cultural pussification.
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Prenj
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Joined: 20 Nov 2011
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Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | ichbinsisyphos wrote: | | Thats not number of fatties. Thats the number of people that could be fed with what the fatties eat to much or some similar weird idiot statistic. The actual percentage of people with BMI > 30 is around 30% in the US. |
Last I heard, the forecast was that the percentage "overweight" (whatever that means) is approaching 40-something percent (that might have been limited to those under age 20). However, I do believe this is a global trend (where food isn't scarce), and that it's more driven by sedentary lifestyles, hedonistic values, and in general, cultural pussification. |
Pretty much. People are more and more like those in Wall-E. Like "don't hike, you'll get blisters". Instead of figuring out how to buy proper shoes, walk them in, pack some 2nd skin and go out and hike.
Also this. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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And everybody planted in front of a computer screen, or sitting immobile glued to their cell phone texting.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four. |
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bbe
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nomilieu
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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For me, it's not sugary food; it's beer. I do play racquetball (or sometimes tennis) daily to avoid an explosion of fat. |
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juniper
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Location: EU
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| nomilieu wrote: | People aren't fat because they drive around instead of walking, running, biking, or whatever.
People are fat because they work in cubicles all day and then snack on the couch in the evenings.
Then again, I may be sensitive about gas prices since I don't live very close to work. Increased gas prices fuck with my well-being, as it digs noticably into my monthly funds. |
It's all part of the problem. however, you have to explain why in fat countries like UK, Canada and the US, people are far more fit in an urban core where they don't drive all over the place. Londoners, New Yorkers, Montrealers, and Bostonites are slimmer than the suburban counter parts. A lot of it is class, but a lot of it is the extra 200m to the tube station. I bike, bus or tube it to work and all of it takes more energy (off my body) than driving would. It absolutely pisses me off how expensive gas is here, but at the end of the month I am glad I am not obese.
as for your gas sensitivity, again, that isn't a good argument for keeping gas prices low. you will adapt. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: mouths vs flesh to feed: global obesity. |
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| juniper wrote: | | a good argument for policy. |
Social engineering is never a good policy.
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
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juniper
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: mouths vs flesh to feed: global obesity. |
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| pjp wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | a good argument for policy. |
Social engineering is never a good policy. |
it's not social engineering. it's urban planning. rather big difference. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Altering gas prices is social engineering, not urban planning.
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
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juniper
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: |
Altering gas prices is social engineering, not urban planning. |
fine, it isn't urban planning, but it isn't social engineering. it is a tax, plain and simple. are all taxes social engineering? Because it is a pretty blunt instrument (may not give the social outcome you are looking for). |
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Muso
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | are all taxes social engineering? |
Yes
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juniper
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | are all taxes social engineering? |
Yes |
this is why people think people on the right are a little bit cuckoo. |
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Muso
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | are all taxes social engineering? |
Yes |
this is why people think people on the right are a little bit cuckoo. |
And also why people on the left are viewed as despots.
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If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
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bogamol
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 01 Nov 2009
Posts: 84
Location: Detroit, Michigan - The Home of Rock and Roll
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | pjp wrote: |
Altering gas prices is social engineering, not urban planning. |
fine, it isn't urban planning, but it isn't social engineering. it is a tax, plain and simple. are all taxes social engineering? Because it is a pretty blunt instrument (may not give the social outcome you are looking for). |
No. Not all taxes are social engineering. However, taxes unequally distributed across a population that are designed to specifically cause a desired outcome in people's behaviors are social engineering. For example, when dirty industries are charged a carbon tax, they can mitigate that tax liability by changing their behavior to have cleaner emissions, lets say by adding better scrubbers to their smokestacks.
Taxes that are not social engineering include our current tiered (bizarre deductions not withstanding) tax system, a flat tax, a fair tax or a sales tax on all goods.
Your assertion that the reason we should tax gas at a higher rate, in the context of this conversation is that it will compel people to move closer to their jobs where they can engage in mass transit or self propelled transit in order to make fat people lose weight. This is social engineering. Whether or not your plan is ethical, let's call a duck a duck. |
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Boris27
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| Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject: Re: mouths vs flesh to feed: global obesity. |
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| pjp wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | a good argument for policy. |
Social engineering is never a good policy. |
Really? Why?
Here in the Netherlands, there's huge tax on (amongst other things) tobacco in an attempt to keep the amount of smokers down. I don't think this is bad.
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