| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:12 am Post subject: The week that Europe stopped pretending |
 |
|
The week that Europe stopped pretending
| Quote: | The euro has essentially broken down as a viable economic and political undertaking. The latest rush of events reeks of impending denouement.
Switzerland is threatening capital controls to repel bank flight from Euroland. The Swiss two-year note has fallen to -0.32pc, not that it seems to make any difference.
Denmark’s central bank said it was battening down the hatches for a "splintering" of EMU. It has cut interest rates twice in a matter or days and pledged to do whatever it takes to stop euros flooding into the country. Contingency plans are on the lips of officials in every capital in Europe, and beyond.
On a single day, the European Commission said monetary union was in danger of "disintegration" and the European Central Bank said it was "unsustainable" as constructed.
Their plaintive cries may have fallen on deaf ears in Berlin, but they were heard all too clearly by investors across the world.
Joschka Fischer, Germany’s former vice-Chancellor, said EU leaders have two weeks left to save the project.
"Europe continues to try to quench the fire with gasoline – German-enforced austerity. In a mere three years, the eurozone’s financial crisis has become an existential crisis for Europe."
"Let’s not delude ourselves: If the euro falls apart, so will the European Union, triggering a global economic crisis on a scale that most people alive today have never experienced," he said.
Mr Fischer has the matter backwards. The euro itself is the chief cause of the existential crisis he discerns. Yet he is right that three precious year have been squandered, and that Europe‘s policy mix has been atrociously misguided. The pace of fiscal tightening has been too extreme, made much worse by the ECB’s monetary tightening last year. This inflicted a double-barrelled shock on Southern Europe. The whole region was forced back into slump before it had reached "escape velocity". |
Continued in TFA
Related
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Old School
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 231
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
Looks like Great Britain might have been right all along.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything.
- Oscar Wilde |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Old School wrote: | | Looks like Great Britain might have been right all along. |
With regards to the Euro, they definitely were. Why tie your currency with the economies of Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain and France when you already have the pound sterling?
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16033
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
Seems like it should be able to work, just perhaps not as quickly as they tried.
Allow weaker countries to standardize on the Euro, but not rely on their economies to contribute to its value.
At some point, they'd probably need to move towards unification as the DPRE or whatever.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Old School
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 231
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
DPRE... 
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything.
- Oscar Wilde |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 82
Location: Bangalore, India
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
Desperate People Reaching Europe.
Why? What did you think it meant?
_________________
What looks like a cat, flies like a bat, brays like a donkey, and plays like a monkey? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| notageek wrote: | Desperate People Reaching Europe.
Why? What did you think it meant? |
Drunk Pirates Raping Eunuchs?
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amaranatha
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Spain, Europe
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
In other news, our "allies" of the USA and UK keep throwing us all the shit they can. What a surprise. But I guess it's understandable, once you realize that their own systems are equally fucked. Diverting attention and all that.
The EU will survive -- these are just growing pains of a loose confederation becoming a more centralized federation. A common fiscal authority will be formed. The Schengen Area, the Eurozone and the EU will be made equivalent (leaving the UK out, most probably). And if we manage to convince the French that English should be the "national" language of the EU, we might have a true United States of Europe in a couple of decades.
_________________
"Freedom incurs responsibility; that is why so many men fear it." - George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John-Boy
Guru
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 439
Location: Desperately seeking Moksha in all the wrong places
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | these are just growing pains of a loose confederation. |
I think you've hit teenage strop phase with Greece old boy.
_________________
When you break rules, break 'em good and hard |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | And if we manage to convince the French that English should be the "national" language of the EU, we might have a true United States of Europe in a couple of decades. |
And this is exactly why the grand project will fail.
_________________
| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 8
Location: Mostar, BiH
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| aidanjt wrote: | | Amaranatha wrote: | | And if we manage to convince the French that English should be the "national" language of the EU, we might have a true United States of Europe in a couple of decades. |
And this is exactly why the grand project will fail. |
++
Never gonna happen. Not with our history. Any sign of trouble and someone will mention The War. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | In other news, our "allies" of the USA and UK keep throwing us all the shit they can. |
Spain's an ally? Really? Your country seems to keep voting in politicians with a rather anti-US fervor. That would indicate something other than being an ally.
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Prenj wrote: | | Never gonna happen. Not with our history. Any sign of trouble and someone will mention The War. |
At this point, forcing a 'united europe' is far more likely to start a major war than prevent one.
_________________
| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aCOSwt
Advocate
Joined: 19 Oct 2007
Posts: 2075
Location: Between the keyboard and the chair
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | And if we manage to convince the French that English should be the "national" language of the EU |
Being personally convinced that some federation will necessarily become a reality, I expect it not to depend on that.
Otherwise... we would necessarily adopt... something else... totally meaningless in any language.
Why do we use the totally meaningless UTC rather than the meaningful TUC or even UCT ?
Oh wait... an universal european language... we used to have one !
Latin !
I don't mind ! 
And believe erm67 would not mind either 
_________________
In theory there are no differences between theory and practice. In practice, there are.
Don't try to understand my posts. Immanuel Kant never did, he thinks that only music and laughter do not have to mean anything. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amaranatha
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Spain, Europe
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| John-Boy wrote: | | I think you've hit teenage strop phase with Greece old boy. |
The Greek problem is overrated and more political than economic. Europe has a strong enough economy to survive this and more.
| muso wrote: | | Spain's an ally? Really? |
I meant Europe's allies, not merely Spain's, but the answer would be "yes", as well.
| muso wrote: | | Your country seems to keep voting in politicians with a rather anti-US fervor. That would indicate something other than being an ally. |
Please, give examples of those anti-US politicians that we keep voting in. Someone as versed in European politics as you will certainly be able to offer relevant examples.
| Prenj wrote: | | Never gonna happen. Not with our history. Any sign of trouble and someone will mention The War. |
So what do you propose, then? Have a look at the planet. USA, China, India, Russia, Brazil, and a potential Islamic alliance -- against such large players, it's either unite or become increasingly irrelevant, really.
| aidanjt wrote: | | At this point, forcing a 'united europe' is far more likely to start a major war than prevent one. |
Why? Among whom?
_________________
"Freedom incurs responsibility; that is why so many men fear it." - George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | muso wrote: | | Your country seems to keep voting in politicians with a rather anti-US fervor. That would indicate something other than being an ally. |
Please, give examples of those anti-US politicians that we keep voting in. Someone as versed in European politics as you will certainly be able to offer relevant examples. |
The socialist morons you had running your country before the 2011 elections... where reality finally caught up with the leftist pipe dreams.
_________________
If I had a dollar for every time capitalism was blamed for the problems caused by government, I'd be a fat filmmaker with a baseball cap |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amaranatha
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Spain, Europe
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Muso wrote: | | The socialist morons you had running your country before the 2011 elections... where reality finally caught up with the leftist pipe dreams. |
So the best example of a politician "that we keep voting in" that you have found is someone who has been recently ousted, managing to lose a third of its voters in the process. Great, that makes sense.
Not to mention that while Zapatero had big gripes with Bush, he acted like Obama was the biggest thing since sliced bread. Left-wingers get on better with Left-wingers, who would've thought.
_________________
"Freedom incurs responsibility; that is why so many men fear it." - George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
bbe
Apprentice
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 158
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | ....the EU will be made equivalent (leaving the UK out, most probably) ... that English should be the "national" language of the EU... |
Tres amusant |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
John-Boy
Guru
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 439
Location: Desperately seeking Moksha in all the wrong places
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | The Greek problem is overrated and more political than economic. |
How large is the Greek deficit again ? Also what happens if one of those anti austerity parties
get into power and start to question the fiscal restraint being imposed in return for bailouts ?
You've also got Ireland, Portugal, Spain (wobbly), Italy ....
_________________
When you break rules, break 'em good and hard |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amaranatha
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Spain, Europe
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| bbe wrote: | | Amaranatha wrote: | | ....the EU will be made equivalent (leaving the UK out, most probably) ... that English should be the "national" language of the EU... |
Tres amusant |
Latin survived far longer than Rome.
_________________
"Freedom incurs responsibility; that is why so many men fear it." - George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 8
Location: Mostar, BiH
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | | Never gonna happen. Not with our history. Any sign of trouble and someone will mention The War. |
So what do you propose, then? Have a look at the planet. USA, China, India, Russia, Brazil, and a potential Islamic alliance -- against such large players, it's either unite or become increasingly irrelevant, really. |
I'm all for strong Europe, but it has to be built on sane grounds. Not on political compromise. You see compromise in theory sounds like a solution for a multi-actor disagreement, but in reality it is a lose-lose scenario for all involved.
What EU apartchniks failed to conjure is the solution in the form of "higher path", which is win-win for all involved. They are too stupid and greedy for that, so all they can do in crisis is throw weight around, and that is exactly why people start remembering past conflicts, leaders and rhetorics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
aidanjt
Veteran
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Amaranatha wrote: | | aidanjt wrote: | | At this point, forcing a 'united europe' is far more likely to start a major war than prevent one. |
Why? Among whom? |
Why? Because it's not a natural union. Completely distinct and mutually distrustful cultures wont all just willingly jump in the EU dingy and sing kumbyfuckingya. And if you force them at gun-point and duplicity, then all you're doing is stockpiling a powder-keg of loathing and resentment. The whom is obvious.
_________________
| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amaranatha
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Spain, Europe
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| aCOSwt wrote: | | Amaranatha wrote: | | And if we manage to convince the French that English should be the "national" language of the EU |
Being personally convinced that some federation will necessarily become a reality, I expect it not to depend on that. |
Well, at least we partially agree.
| aCOSwt wrote: | Oh wait... an universal european language... we used to have one !
Latin !
I don't mind !
And believe erm67 would not mind either |
Neither would I, but I think we can agree that English would be the alternative with the least cost. I'm not advocating abandoning the other languages, but making $LINGUA_FRANCA official in every country in order to reduce bureaucracy. English is just the easy option. Now, please, restrain yourself and avoid making connections between "Franca" and "French". 
_________________
"Freedom incurs responsibility; that is why so many men fear it." - George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amaranatha
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Spain, Europe
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Prenj wrote: | I'm all for strong Europe, but it has to be built on sane grounds. Not on political compromise. You see compromise in theory sounds like a solution for a multi-actor disagreement, but in reality it is a lose-lose scenario for all involved.
What EU apartchniks failed to conjure is the solution in the form of "higher path", which is win-win for all involved. They are too stupid and greedy for that, so all they can do in crisis is throw weight around, and that is exactly why people start remembering past conflicts, leaders and rhetorics. |
I completely agree with the spirit of what you said, but then I'm at loss w.r.t. to the criticism shown towards a more consolidated (fiscal, legal, etc.) union. I also want to remark that what is a political compromise today could be a political tradition tomorrow.
Care to specify what those "sane grounds" would be for you? I'm not trolling you, I'm genuinely interested.
_________________
"Freedom incurs responsibility; that is why so many men fear it." - George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Amaranatha
n00b
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 48
Location: Spain, Europe
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| aidanjt wrote: | | Why? Because it's not a natural union. Completely distinct and mutually distrustful cultures wont all just willingly jump in the EU dingy and sing kumbyfuckingya. And if you force them at gun-point and duplicity, then all you're doing is stockpiling a powder-keg of loathing and resentment. The whom is obvious. |
To my knowledge, no country has been forced at gun-point into the EU. I also disagree with the impression that we're that different. Honestly, talking about war seems completely out of the picture to me.
_________________
"Freedom incurs responsibility; that is why so many men fear it." - George Bernard Shaw |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
Off the Wall
