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sts
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BoneKracker
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 Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: |
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... according to some activist law professor (amateurishly investigating a 30-year old case). And, here's the one-sided, sensationalist summary of his one-sided story, by a biased, French-Canadian activist / journalist. :yawn: 
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: |
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I'm so tired of BK dismissing these reports out of hand. At a certain point you're just sticking your fingers in your ears.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | I'm so tired of BK dismissing these reports out of hand. At a certain point you're just sticking your fingers in your ears. |
Maybe I am dismissing this one out of hand, or just basing that dismissal on some ad hominem, but it's also based on the experience of having looked in depth into the last few of these to come up.
You can't make a judgement based on one side of the story, and that's all you have here. A sensationalist accounting of one side of the story. Sorry, but Homey don't play dat.
Take it to court. That's what courts are for. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of propaganda.
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Muso
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | I'm so tired of BK dismissing these reports out of hand. At a certain point you're just sticking your fingers in your ears. |
Dismissing it out of hand is no different from accepting it at face value.
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:54 am Post subject: |
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It isn't a question of whether or not this one was erroneous, but how many. We're imperfect, so there is no way our system of execution has had zero errors.
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:23 am Post subject: |
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I imagine there must have been some people erroneously sentenced to death in our recent history. We know there were, if we go back a hundred years or so. You'd think, with all the activism on this subject, people would manage to get several of those convictions or sentences overturned post-mortem, but nobody has done so, yet.
All you need is new exculpatory evidence, or evidence that the trial was substantially unfair. So, unless there is some kind of grand judicial conspiracy spanning the court systems of 35 states, 94 Federal Judicial Districts, 12 Federal Circuit Courts, and the U.S. Supreme Court (which I suppose there could be -- I wouldn't know), it must be that such evidence is generally lacking, despite what we read in these sensationalist pieces of activist "journalism".
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Well, most of the effort I'm aware of focuses on those not yet executed. I'm not aware of any significant effort to go through records. Also, just because the evidence isn't there doesn't mean it can't be a wrongful execution.
Laws often limit what can be done, and just because that law exists or some group of robed asshats says no doesn't mean no mistakes have been made.
Your argument sounds an awful lot like those who say "Unless you've got something to hide, you'll provide a DNA sample."
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:29 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | Well, most of the effort I'm aware of focuses on those not yet executed. I'm not aware of any significant effort to go through records. Also, just because the evidence isn't there doesn't mean it can't be a wrongful execution.
Laws often limit what can be done, and just because that law exists or some group of robed asshats says no doesn't mean no mistakes have been made.
Your argument sounds an awful lot like those who say "Unless you've got something to hide, you'll provide a DNA sample." |
Your argument sounds an awful lot like a strawman. I never said there had been no mistakes. In fact, I said there almost certainly have been, but that the evidence of it must be generally lacking.
Once a judge and jury have decided a case, if someone wants to invalidate the outcome the burden of proof is on them. They must prove there is exculpatory evidence which was not considered, or that the trial was substantially unfair. Doubts, rumors, and one-sided misrepresentation of the facts don't count. I am completely at a loss to comprehend the meaning of your DNA sample analogy. 
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | I am completely at a loss to comprehend the meaning of your DNA sample analogy. :lol: |
The right to not self-incriminate. If you use that right, "then you must be guilty." I couldn't think of it earlier.
| BoneKracker wrote: | Your argument sounds an awful lot like a strawman. I never said there had been no mistakes. In fact, I said there almost certainly have been, but that the evidence of it must be generally lacking.
Once a judge and jury have decided a case, if someone wants to invalidate the outcome the burden of proof is on them. They must prove there is exculpatory evidence which was not considered, or that the trial was substantially unfair. Doubts, rumors, and one-sided misrepresentation of the facts don't count. |
No, we're just not connecting, but I think I've got it now.
I'm not arguing against the evidence. I'm not arguing any given case should be thrown out. The point is, and you seem to agree, that we have and do execute people who were not guilty of that specific crime. The argument is that knowing we do this, we should stop executions. Stopping executions is not the same as letting them out of prison. Plus it allows for someone to possibly prove they were wrongfully convicted.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:35 am Post subject: |
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I disagree. I think the number of erroneous executions (if any) is probably very small. In my opinion, the social benefit of justice outweighs that risk.
The number of executions we are talking about is very small (last year, it was 46 people). We're generally talking about only the worst kinds of criminals imaginable. Without going into details, so people just deserve to die. We've talked about some of these cases before, and you know what I'm talking about. You ought to go read the list of crimes committed by those 46 people. Allowing such people to get away with their crimes and live out their lives is wrong, and in countries where they can, it eats away at everyone's sense of justice, contributing to the general lack of faith in society and the sense of learned helplessness.
What kind of a society is it that lets a men break into a man's home, beat him senseless, rob him, rape his wife and daughters, and then set fire to them all in his own house, and then lets them live out their lives in the comparative comfort of a prison, with three meals a day, medical care, clothing, libraries, sports, entertainment, the companionship of their fellow man, and the protection of the law? Not one that I want to belong to.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: |
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The same story has been reported by the BBC and RTÉ, so at least two countries are saying lolUSA.
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Not one that I want to belong to. |
The statistics aren't the issue. I personally don't see any social benefit of an execution. It seems that would mostly be "feel good" rather than any meaningful benefit to society. Is that just your opinion, or has there been research to try and correlate some benefit?
That we're willing to convict/kill people without concern for justice is the primary reason I refuse to participate in the joke that is our court system. Yes, it is among "the best," but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved. Especially when it doesn't require any meaningful change.
If you can demonstrate the real societal benefit, I might change my mind. But only if there was a big red emergency stop button that could be pushed when it wasn't one of the criminal expendables you described as deserving to die anyway.
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juniper
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | ... according to some activist law professor (amateurishly investigating a 30-year old case). And, here's the one-sided, sensationalist summary of his one-sided story, by a biased, French-Canadian activist / journalist. :yawn: |
he seems to be more than just amateurishly investigating. and there is more than one of him.
| Quote: |
Liebman and five of his students at Columbia School of Law spent almost five years poring over details of a case that he says is "emblematic" of legal system failure. |
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juniper
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
What kind of a society is it that lets a men break into a man's home, beat him senseless, rob him, rape his wife and daughters, and then set fire to them all in his own house, and then lets them live out their lives in the comparative comfort of a prison, with three meals a day, medical care, clothing, libraries, sports, entertainment, the companionship of their fellow man, and the protection of the law? Not one that I want to belong to. |
a civilised one? not killing defenseless people seems to fall in that category. |
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pitcrawler
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| The good news is that 17 states have abolished the death penalty so far, the most recent being Connecticut last month. I think some states are just beyond hope though. |
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wildhorse
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Nothing beats personal experience. I think that is what people like BoneKracker need. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | ... according to some activist law professor (amateurishly investigating a 30-year old case). And, here's the one-sided, sensationalist summary of his one-sided story, by a biased, French-Canadian activist / journalist. :yawn: |
he seems to be more than just amateurishly investigating. and there is more than one of him.
| Quote: | | Liebman and five of his students at Columbia School of Law spent almost five years poring over details of a case that he says is "emblematic" of legal system failure. |
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No, reading over papers in your spare time is indeed an "amateurish" investigation. Do you really think that is going to produce new exculpatory evidence or new evidence that the trial was substantially unfair?
"There is more than one of him?" 
Oh, yes. I'm sure his five students, helping out with this in their spare time, are just full of independent insight, sound judgement, and a wealth of expertise.
Give me a break.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
What kind of a society is it that lets a men break into a man's home, beat him senseless, rob him, rape his wife and daughters, and then set fire to them all in his own house, and then lets them live out their lives in the comparative comfort of a prison, with three meals a day, medical care, clothing, libraries, sports, entertainment, the companionship of their fellow man, and the protection of the law? Not one that I want to belong to. |
a civilised one? not killing defenseless people seems to fall in that category. |
Because Jebus said so. Good job, Mr. Enlightened Rational Twenty-First Century Man.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| wildhorse wrote: | | Nothing beats personal experience. I think that is what people like BoneKracker need. |
Did you mean personal experience being one of the theoretical few being wrongly convicted of a capital offense, or did you mean personal experience being one of the millions of people directly or indirectly victimized by heinous capital crimes each year, such as child-raping, victim-torturing serial killers and their ilk? Which did you mean?
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
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wildhorse
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Did you mean personal experience being one of the theoretical few being wrongly convicted of a capital offense, or did you mean personal experience being one of the millions of people directly or indirectly victimized by heinous capital crimes each year, such as child-raping, victim-torturing serial killers and their ilk? Which did you mean? |
Both. It might help you to see both sides. And you may be able to make a point, at least once in your life, if you actually had some first hand experience of dying by the hands of the hangman.
| Quote: | McCoy: Perhaps, we could cover a little philosophical ground. Life
pause
McCoy: Death
pause
McCoy: Life.
pause
McCoy: Things of that nature.
Spock: I did not have time on Vulcan to review the philosophical disciplines.
McCoy: C'mon, Spock, it's me, McCoy. You really have gone where no man's gone before. Can't you tell me what it felt like?
Spock: It would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame-of-reference.
McCoy: You're joking!
Spock: A joke
pause
Spock: is a story with a humorous climax.
McCoy: You mean I have to die to discuss your insights on death?
Spock: Forgive me, Doctor. I am receiving a number of distress calls.
McCoy: I don't doubt it. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| wildhorse wrote: | | And you may be able to make a point, at least once in your life, if you actually had some first hand experience of dying by the hands of the hangman. |
I'll make a point on your head...
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juniper
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
What kind of a society is it that lets a men break into a man's home, beat him senseless, rob him, rape his wife and daughters, and then set fire to them all in his own house, and then lets them live out their lives in the comparative comfort of a prison, with three meals a day, medical care, clothing, libraries, sports, entertainment, the companionship of their fellow man, and the protection of the law? Not one that I want to belong to. |
a civilised one? not killing defenseless people seems to fall in that category. |
Because Jebus said so. Good job, Mr. Enlightened Rational Twenty-First Century Man. |
so killing defenceless people is justified? |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
What kind of a society is it that lets a men break into a man's home, beat him senseless, rob him, rape his wife and daughters, and then set fire to them all in his own house, and then lets them live out their lives in the comparative comfort of a prison, with three meals a day, medical care, clothing, libraries, sports, entertainment, the companionship of their fellow man, and the protection of the law? Not one that I want to belong to. |
a civilised one? not killing defenseless people seems to fall in that category. |
Because Jebus said so. Good job, Mr. Enlightened Rational Twenty-First Century Man. |
so killing defenceless people is justified? |
Killing defenseless people who deserve it is justified. For example, even Canada extradited that evil motherfucker Charles Ng to the U.S., where they knew he would certainly be sentenced to death. He's still sitting on death row, by the way. Maybe you guys can save him.
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Maybe I am dismissing this one out of hand, or just basing that dismissal on some ad hominem, but it's also based on the experience of having looked in depth into the last few of these to come up. |
Which cases did you look in depth into?
| Quote: | | You can't make a judgement based on one side of the story, and that's all you have here. A sensationalist accounting of one side of the story. Sorry, but Homey don't play dat. |
You saying "sensationalist" all the time is sensationalist. The newspaper article is not the report, which I'm sure you haven't read. It's like calling a science experiment--the experiment itself--sensationalist because the findings were overhyped by a newspaper journalist.
| Quote: | | Take it to court. That's what courts are for. Otherwise, it's just a bunch of propaganda. |
That's begging the question. The courts are the subject of the debate. "I think the courts might be broken." "No problem, the courts will figure it out."
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