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China dissident Chen Guangcheng 'under US protection'

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notageek
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Location: Bangalore, India

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:23 am Post subject: China dissident Chen Guangcheng 'under US protection'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17878744

Quote:

Blind Chinese dissident Chen Guangcheng is under "US protection" in Beijing following a dramatic escape from house arrest, a US-based rights group says.

The group, ChinaAid, also says high-level talks are under way between US and Chinese officials over his fate.

Earlier, fellow activist Hu Jia said Mr Chen was in the US embassy. Neither country has commented on the claims.

Mr Chen's escape could overshadow a visit to Beijing next week by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

She has repeatedly called for the dissident's release.

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pjp
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Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:29 pm Post subject:

Maybe her visit next week isn't a coincidence. _________________ lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties. In Loving Memory 1787 - 2008

BoneKracker
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:54 am Post subject:

This is likely to develop into an issue. Hopefully they've already sneaked him out of country. If not, it may be very difficult to avoid being forced to turn him over to the Chinese, which will be embarrassing for the U.S. and for Obama. _________________ Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC. -- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

pjp
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:34 pm Post subject:

BoneKracker wrote:

Hopefully they've already sneaked him out of country. If not, it may be very difficult to avoid being forced to turn him over

So lie and say he's already gone? I don't see how it could make a difference, because the same 'force' could require that he be returned, no? Maybe I'm not understanding the nuance you're suggesting.
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BoneKracker
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:26 pm Post subject:

pjp wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

Hopefully they've already sneaked him out of country. If not, it may be very difficult to avoid being forced to turn him over

So lie and say he's already gone? I don't see how it could make a difference, because the same 'force' could require that he be returned, no? Maybe I'm not understanding the nuance you're suggesting.

I'm saying that if he is in fact inside the U.S. Embassy, we would have to get him out of the country somehow. While the sovereignty of embassies protects him there, and diplomatic immunity of official vehicles would protect him all the way to a runway, when he steps out of the car onto the runway, he'd be vulnerable to arrest by the Chinese authorities.

They've got a billion and a half people. By now, I would imagine that every vehicle leaving our embassy is being tailed by Chinese security agents, ready to arrest this guy's ass the second he exits it. He could be disguised, but it wouldn't be easy to get him out, if he's still there.

Once he's out of the country, they can't legally do anything to get him back, without violating the sovereignty of whatever country has granted him asylum. That's the difference.
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energyman76b
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:36 pm Post subject:

there is a simple solution:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_pouch

just have a shipping container delivered to the embassy, turn it into a living room, put the stamp on it and then deliver it to the next cargo plane leaving the country.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

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pjp
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:29 pm Post subject:

@BK: Got it, that makes sense.

energyman76b wrote:

lol, Use carbonite and the likeness of the dissident on the exterior.
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BoneKracker
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:46 pm Post subject:

energyman76b wrote:

Wow, I didn't know we could use a shipping container as a diplomatic pouch. :lol:

I guess that solves the problem. Good thinking.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

energyman76b
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Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:16 pm Post subject:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

Wow, I didn't know we could use a shipping container as a diplomatic pouch. :lol:

I guess that solves the problem. Good thinking.

the soviets once declared a truck a diplomatic pouch. You could try that with a tank. Just for shit and giggles.
_________________

AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.

pjp
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Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:08 am Post subject:

BoneKracker wrote:

Wow, I didn't know we could use a shipping container as a diplomatic pouch. :lol:

If not, just get some Chinese factory to make a really large pouch in which you put the shipping container.
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In Loving Memory
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notageek
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17927860 The dissident was forced to leave the embassy after threats to his family. China has demanded an apology for US actions. _________________ What looks like a cat, flies like a bat, brays like a donkey, and plays like a monkey?

energyman76b
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:22 pm Post subject:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.
_________________

AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.

BoneKracker
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:01 pm Post subject:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

Yup. Probably Hillary has been sent to ask them to support Obama's chances to get re-elected in exchange for throwing Taiwan or the Philippines under the bus or something, like Obama did with Putin and missile defense; so she threw Chen under the bus as a token of good will.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

energyman76b
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:10 pm Post subject:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

it is not like you have much choice. China could crush you any moment putting their dollars&bonds on the market.
_________________

AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.

pjp
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Posts: 16029
Location: Colorado

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject:

notageek wrote:

The dissident was forced to leave the embassy after threats to his family. China has demanded an apology for US actions.

Hmm... who else makes threats to family to induce cooperation... that sounds familiar.
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Muso
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Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:52 pm Post subject:

BoneKracker wrote:

like Obama did with Putin and missile defense

Related
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BoneKracker
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:12 am Post subject:

energyman76b wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

it is not like you have much choice. China could crush you any moment putting their dollars&bonds on the market.

That wouldn't crush us. It would be a good thing. The primary consequence would be to prevent Obama from continuing his deficit spending.
_________________
Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
-- Headline of a document on Winston Smith's terminal in his cubicle at the Ministry of Truth, seen briefly in the background in one scene of the movie rendition of Nineteen Eighty-Four.

energyman76b
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

it is not like you have much choice. China could crush you any moment putting their dollars&bonds on the market.

That wouldn't crush us. It would be a good thing. The primary consequence would be to prevent Obama from continuing his deficit spending.

no, it would completely destroy your economy. Worthless money, unable to import anything - ok, after the crisis everybody else on this planet would have a much better life. But 320million starvation victims is a little bit harsh.
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AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.

Old School
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject:

energyman76b wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

it is not like you have much choice. China could crush you any moment putting their dollars&bonds on the market.

That wouldn't crush us. It would be a good thing. The primary consequence would be to prevent Obama from continuing his deficit spending.

You are overestimating the amount of debt owed to China. The largest foreign holder of U.S. debt is China, which owns more about $1.2 trillion in bills, notes and bonds, according to the Treasury.

In total, China owns about 8 percent of publicly held U.S. debt.
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notageek
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject:

8% of America is expendable. _________________ What looks like a cat, flies like a bat, brays like a donkey, and plays like a monkey?

energyman76b
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject:

Old School wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

it is not like you have much choice. China could crush you any moment putting their dollars&bonds on the market.

That wouldn't crush us. It would be a good thing. The primary consequence would be to prevent Obama from continuing his deficit spending.

you underestimate the domino effect.
_________________

AidanJT wrote:

Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.

Satan's got perfectly toned abs and rocks a c-cup.

pitcrawler
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Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Oklahoma, USA

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

Quote:

Russia says it is prepared to use "destructive force pre-emptively" if the US goes ahead with controversial plans for a missile defence system based in Central Europe.
...
Gen Makarov also said that if the European shield was built, Russia would respond by putting more powerful warheads on its own ballistic missiles.

Russia and the US have been at odds over the issue of missile defence since 2000, ever since the idea was first put forward by then-President George W Bush.

President Barack Obama, who succeeded Mr Bush in the White House in 2008, scrapped plans for a network of bases spread across Poland and the Czech Republic with the capacity to intercept long-range missiles.

But in 2010, the US signed an agreement with Poland to use an old airstrip at Redzikowo, near the Baltic coast, as a missile defence base.

pjp
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Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 11:38 pm Post subject:

energyman76b wrote:

you underestimate the domino effect.

You underestimate the value of the debt to China, and the ramifications of drastic reduction of US consumption of their goods. It will take more than one revolutionary to trigger any meaningful involvement of US debt.

Quote:

\o/

The last cold war went well for them.
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BoneKracker
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:46 am Post subject:

pitcrawler wrote:

BoneKracker wrote:

energyman76b wrote:

USA once against silenced by China's power over them.

Quote:

The idea of missile defense goes back to Reagan, and it's a good idea. Anybody who prefers mutually-assured destruction to defensive systems should have their head examined.

But, to Obama, re-election is more important than the security of the American people. He's already let the Russians use him like a cheap whore during missile negotiations, giving them a free period without monitoring to hide shit and move shit around, and then allowing them to achieve a decisive advantage in combat power.

Now he's thrown this dissident under the bus. In Chen's phone call to CNN, he clearly states that the U.S. Embassy constantly pushed him to leave, telling him that the Chinese had said they'd kill his family if he did not, and saying that they would send people to the hospital to be with him and protect him, and that when he got to the hospital, there was nobody there but hordes of Chinese agents and guards. The Obama Administration denies this, saying they wanted him to stay, and he left of his own volition. Obama's ambassador even says he asked him, "Are you sure this what you want to do?, but that had a "change of heart". Sounds like bullshit to me.

What are we expected to believe, that he had a "change of heart" which made him suddenly run to the U.S. Embassy for asylum, then had another "change of heart" which made him want to leave the embassy against the advice of the Obama Administration, and that he then had yet another "change of heart" which made him phone the press begging for his life (and saying things that are 180 degrees different than what we're hearing from the Obama Administration)?

I think it's pretty clear what is happening here.
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BoneKracker
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Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:38 am Post subject:

Thread title should be updated to "Under Obama Bus".

Quote:

Chinese Activist 'Very Disappointed' in the U.S., Says Officials Lied to Him

A little over 12 hours after blind Chinese activist Chen Guangcheng was released from the U.S. embassy in Beijing, to which he had fled after escaping house arrest, Chen now says that American officials encouraged him to leave the safe haven of the embassy building, in part by making promises that they failed to keep. In an interview with CNN's Steven Jiang, he expressed deep disappointment with the U.S. and with President Barack Obama personally. He said that embassy officials were no longer picking up his calls and that he already felt his rights being "violated" by the Chinese government, which had promised him his freedom in exchange for him leaving the embassy. He strenuously and repeatedly asked the U.S. and Obama to help him and his family leave China.

The interview portrays Chen as furious at the U.S., which he had only 24 hours ago seen as his greatest hope, and portrays the Obama administration as having sold out the high-profile activist, who in 2005 made an enemy of the Chinese government when he campaigned against thousands of forced abortions and forced sterilizations.

Quote:

He described the Chinese police's brutal treatment of his wife while he was in detention, which appears to have been a tool for coercing his departure from the embassy. "[My wife] was tied to a chair by police for two days. Then they carried sticks to our home, threatening to beat her to death," he said, adding that they told her she would be sent home to Shandong province and beaten there if Chen did not leave the embassy.

The activist pleaded with the U.S. to remove him and his family from China. "I want them to protect human rights through concrete actions. We are in danger. If you can talk to Hillary [Clinton], I hope she can help my whole family leave China," he said. "I would like to say to [President Obama]: Please do everything you can to get our whole family out."

A statement this morning from Secretary of State Hillary Clinton read, "I am pleased that we were able to facilitate Chen Guangcheng's stay and departure from the U.S. Embassy in a way that reflected his choices and our values. I was glad to have the chance to speak with him today and to congratulate him on being reunited with his wife and children."

Quote:

Update: Time's Jay Newton-Small reports that U.S. officials deny Chen's account, and give a very different version of events.

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/05/chinese-activist-very-disappointed-in-the-us-says-officials-lied-to-him/256675/
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