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dmitchell
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:59 pm Post subject: Drone-happy Obama approves killing unidentified people |
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| Quote: | Obama escalates in Yemen – again
"April 18: The CIA is seeking authority to expand its covert drone campaign in Yemen by launching strikes against terrorism suspects even when it does not know the identities of those who could be killed, US officials said."
At the time, I wrote that “it’s unclear whether Obama will approve Petraeus’ request for the use of ‘signature strikes’ in Yemen,” though that was true only in the most technical sense. It was virtually impossible to imagine that a request from David Petraeus, of all people, to Barack Obama, of all people, for authority to target even more people in Yemen for death, now without even knowing who they are, would be anything but quickly and eagerly approved. And that is exactly what has now happened, as the Post‘s Greg Miller reports today:
"The United States has begun launching drone strikes against suspected al-Qaeda operatives in Yemen under new authority approved by President Obama that allows the CIA and the military to fire even when the identity of those who could be killed is not known, U.S. officials said." |
| Quote: | Beyond the moral aspect — which Serious People do not comment upon, since it implies that the U.S. does not have the right to kill whomever it wants: only strategic objections are permitted — it is crystal clear that, as usual, this aggression will only worsen the very problem it is ostensibly intended to solve. A Wall Street Journal article today quotes proponents of this policy as pointing out that “[Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula] AQAP has grown stronger since one of its prominent leaders, American-born Muslim cleric Anwar al-Awlaki, was killed in a U.S. strike in September.” No kidding: it’s been the case for a full decade now, as the Pentagon well knows, that nothing strengthens Terrorism more than constant American aggression in that region. In February, Jeremy Schaill returned from Yemen and documented how U.S. drone attacks are the primary source of Al Qaeda’s strength in that country. As Johnsen put it last night, pointing to the Wall Street Journal article: “As AQAP continues to grow over the next year in Yemen remember this article and the US decision.”
Then there’s the question of what legal authority exists for Obama to order the targeting of Yemenis who very well may have nothing to do even with the “Al Qaeda” group in Yemen: one which itself did not even exist as of the time the 2001 AUMF was enacted. As Yale Professor Bruce Ackerman argued this weekend in The Washington Post, Obama, by approving of these strikes, is “breaking the legal barrier that Congress erected to prevent the White House from waging an endless war on terrorism.” That’s because Congress, even in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, refused to write the President a blank check to attack Terrorists of any kind. Instead, they authorized force only against those who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and “require[d] the president to return to Congress, and the American people, for another round of express support for military campaigns against other terrorist threats.” But as Obama demonstrated conclusively when he continued to wage the war in Libya even once Congress voted against its authorization, legal and Constitutional constraints are no more important to him than moral and strategic ones when it comes to waging more war.
As usual, to the extent that most Democrats mention any of this, it will be to celebrate its political value: how it proves that Obama is so very Tough and Strong on national security. Because nothing exudes Strength — or the values of the Nobel Peace Prize — like continuously escalating secret wars and targeting people for death via remote-controlled aircraft from thousands of miles away without even knowing their names. The innocent corpses, the trampling on accountability and transparency, the ongoing fueling of Endless War, must not be permitted to interfere with the President’s re-election, so all of this is just best ignored, again. Dead Yemenis will be kept out of sight and out of mind, and on those rare occasions when we hear about them, we’ll just tell ourselves that the President is a Good, Magnanimous Man who just wants to Keep us Safe. |
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Muso
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hope & Change!
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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Ever heard of a war where you don't kill unidentified people?
Me neither.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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BonezTheGoon
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | Ever heard of a war where you don't kill unidentified people?
Me neither. |
Your point, while very valid and interesting, I think was a bit off the mark here. So I'm suggesting the altered version below as a slightly more "on topic" version for your consideration.
| Quote: | Ever heard of assassinations where you kill unidentified people?
Me neither. |
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BonezTheGoon
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Also, in an actual war soldiers who can and do remain unidentified at the personal level are identifiable from uniform to that degree at least. There are war laws about harming people who are not in uniform.
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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I choose to interpret that as a general condemnation of war rather than an inane attempt to minimize this by pretending it's always been this way even though the (obvious) point of the article is that it hasn't always been this way.
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BonezTheGoon
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I took both meanings to be implied. I think it is a very potent and important thought. I was only trying to further it's gravity.
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Muso
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | Ever heard of a war where you don't kill unidentified people?
Me neither. |
When did we declare war on Yemen? When did Obama get authorization from congress for such an adventure?
There was even a Senator who spoke up about this :
| SENATOR Obama wrote: | | The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation. |
If it weren't for double standards that Moron in the White House would have no standards at all.
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pitcrawler
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Something similar has already been done:
| http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-02-25/news/a-u-s-license-to-kill/1/ wrote: | ...
But in this country, George W. Bush (as the December 15 New York Times reported) has authorized the CIA to kill terrorist leaders on an administration list—with, hopefully, minimum civilian casualties.
...
In Pakistan, the center-right Nation editorialized on December 17 that the Bush administration's handing over "to the CIA a list of individuals, considered to be terrorists, with authorization to eliminate them physically . . . will relieve the CIA of the bother to seek approval to kill in each individual case. . . . Terrorism cannot be eliminated through terrorist methods."
The original New York Times report on the CIA's list of targets noted that "the presidential finding authorizing the President to kill terrorists was not limited to those on the list. The president has given broad authority to the CIA to kill or capture operatives of Al Qaeda around the world, officials said."
...
Furthermore, McManus continued, "where possible, the U.S. is seeking permission of local governments before carrying out targeted killings on foreign soil—although officials suggest that Bush is willing to waive that rule if necessary. Launching a targeted killing in another country without its assent is normally a violation of international law, legal scholars say.
" 'There may be some cases where we can't make it conform to international law,' one official said [to McManus]. 'In that case, let's just make it conform to our law.' "
...
I would add a further question: How will we know how many of these killing missions will take place, including how many of the dead are innocent civilians?
The congressional intelligence committees will presumably be informed of these missions, but in how much detail? And to what extent, if any, will American courts be involved in these targeted executions? At least one American citizen, in a CIA operation in Yemen, has been terminated in one of these CIA missions, as I detailed last week. He was considered "an enemy combatant," but was never charged with any crime, nor was he brought into any court before his instant decease from a Hell-fire anti-tank missile fired from a pilotless Predator aircraft operated by the CIA. |
If people think drone strikes are a new Obama thing, they have a very short memory. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | When did we declare war on Yemen? When did Obama get authorization from congress for such an adventure? |
When did you declare war on Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Serbia, Somalia, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, etc, etc ad nauseum?
Yawn.
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Muso
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | | When did we declare war on Yemen? When did Obama get authorization from congress for such an adventure? |
When did you declare war on Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Serbia, Somalia, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, etc, etc ad nauseum?
Yawn. |
You seem to have missed the quote by Obama himself only a couple of years before. Iraq had congressional approval, as did Afghanistan and Vietnam. Korea was a UN conflict, Serbia had no congressional approval (Clinton decided to just act like a king).
Just to clarify, AGAIN, why Obama's actions in Yemen are so ridiculous, "The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." ~ B.H. Obama
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | | When did we declare war on Yemen? When did Obama get authorization from congress for such an adventure? |
When did you declare war on Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Serbia, Somalia, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, etc, etc ad nauseum?
Yawn. |
It's not the declaration of war that is at issue (nobody seems to do that any more); it's the authorization from Congress. The point is that, while Presidents must be able to take emergency action, they should not be getting the country draw into a conflict without a mandate from the people (and we hope that authorization from Congress is a reasonable facsimile thereof which, unlike a popular referendum also hopefully avoids the evils of populist demagoguery to an extent).
We're aware that some of this has gone on before, although not in most of the conflicts to mention above. Specifically in this case, the issue at hand is in part of dmitchell's quote:
| Quote: | | As Yale Professor Bruce Ackerman argued this weekend in The Washington Post, Obama, by approving of these strikes, is “breaking the legal barrier that Congress erected to prevent the White House from waging an endless war on terrorism.” That’s because Congress, even in the immediate aftermath of 9/11, refused to write the President a blank check to attack Terrorists of any kind. Instead, they authorized force only against those who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and “require[d] the president to return to Congress, and the American people, for another round of express support for military campaigns against other terrorist threats.” |
The point there is that, while we know al Qaeda is in Yemen, if we are going to be targeting other people not known to be al Qaeda (perhaps those fighting alongside them, like the Taliban did), then the President needs to come to Congress and make a case for doing so.
As you alluded to above, shooting an unknown people is not uncommon in war. But that's part of the point here. It's one thing to specifically authorize surgical attacks against known al Qaeda operatives; it's another thing entirely to commence more general military operations in a new area of conflict.
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:03 am Post subject: |
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I am fine with killing unidentified people. Much less remorse and no pesky relatives you have to pay off. Double win!
But the target population is all wrong. They should kill unidentified american adult politicians. Much better targets. Triple win!
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| AidanJT wrote: |
Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | It's not the declaration of war that is at issue (nobody seems to do that any more); it's the authorization from Congress. |
Congress authorised the 'war on terror'. This is what happens when you go to war against states of mind. Also, this is hardly the first time an executive order designated targets without congressional approval, either.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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big dave
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| pitcrawler wrote: | Something similar has already been done:
| http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-02-25/news/a-u-s-license-to-kill/1/ wrote: | ...
But in this country, George W. Bush (as the December 15 New York Times reported) has authorized the CIA to kill terrorist leaders on an administration list—with, hopefully, minimum civilian casualties.
...
In Pakistan, the center-right Nation editorialized on December 17 that the Bush administration's handing over "to the CIA a list of individuals, considered to be terrorists, with authorization to eliminate them physically . . . will relieve the CIA of the bother to seek approval to kill in each individual case. . . . Terrorism cannot be eliminated through terrorist methods."
The original New York Times report on the CIA's list of targets noted that "the presidential finding authorizing the President to kill terrorists was not limited to those on the list. The president has given broad authority to the CIA to kill or capture operatives of Al Qaeda around the world, officials said."
...
Furthermore, McManus continued, "where possible, the U.S. is seeking permission of local governments before carrying out targeted killings on foreign soil—although officials suggest that Bush is willing to waive that rule if necessary. Launching a targeted killing in another country without its assent is normally a violation of international law, legal scholars say.
" 'There may be some cases where we can't make it conform to international law,' one official said [to McManus]. 'In that case, let's just make it conform to our law.' "
...
I would add a further question: How will we know how many of these killing missions will take place, including how many of the dead are innocent civilians?
The congressional intelligence committees will presumably be informed of these missions, but in how much detail? And to what extent, if any, will American courts be involved in these targeted executions? At least one American citizen, in a CIA operation in Yemen, has been terminated in one of these CIA missions, as I detailed last week. He was considered "an enemy combatant," but was never charged with any crime, nor was he brought into any court before his instant decease from a Hell-fire anti-tank missile fired from a pilotless Predator aircraft operated by the CIA. |
If people think drone strikes are a new Obama thing, they have a very short memory. |
i dont think they're new... it's just that democrats strongly protested against it when bush did it, but now that it's a democrat doing it, it's suddenly okay. |
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audiodef
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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I'm thinking that even the Nazis took the time to document the names of their victims and issue numbers to replace their names. By the time they were brought down, they'd killed six million, many of whom could be identified.
The United States military has killed far more innocent civilians (including the peaceful natives who were here first and were willing to coexist) than that in its history and never bothered to record the names of the victims. Now they're starting to not care who knows this while they ratchet up the genocide. 
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Muso
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| audiodef wrote: | I'm thinking that even the Nazis took the time to document the names of their victims and issue numbers to replace their names. By the time they were brought down, they'd killed six million, many of whom could be identified.
The United States military has killed far more innocent civilians (including the peaceful natives who were here first and were willing to coexist) than that in its history |
No it hasn't.
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | | audiodef wrote: | I'm thinking that even the Nazis took the time to document the names of their victims and issue numbers to replace their names. By the time they were brought down, they'd killed six million, many of whom could be identified.
The United States military has killed far more innocent civilians (including the peaceful natives who were here first and were willing to coexist) than that in its history |
No it hasn't. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#United_States_of_America
Vietnam war:
Vietnamese civilian dead: 411,000[6] – 4,000,000[16]
Cambodian civilian dead: 200,000 – 300,000*[17][18][19]
Laotian civilian dead: ~20,000 – 200,000*
Total civilian dead: – 631,000 – 4,500,000
Total dead: – 5,397,819[7]
and a lot of people are still killed thanks to agent orange.
and than there are all those murderous dictators who were supported by the USA.
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| AidanJT wrote: |
Libertardian denial of reality is wholly unimpressive and unconvincing, and simply serves to demonstrate what a bunch of delusional fools they all are.
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Muso
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | Muso wrote: | | audiodef wrote: | I'm thinking that even the Nazis took the time to document the names of their victims and issue numbers to replace their names. By the time they were brought down, they'd killed six million, many of whom could be identified.
The United States military has killed far more innocent civilians (including the peaceful natives who were here first and were willing to coexist) than that in its history |
No it hasn't. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#United_States_of_America
Vietnam war:
Vietnamese civilian dead: 411,000[6] – 4,000,000[16]
Cambodian civilian dead: 200,000 – 300,000*[17][18][19]
Laotian civilian dead: ~20,000 – 200,000*
Total civilian dead: – 631,000 – 4,500,000
Total dead: – 5,397,819[7]
and a lot of people are still killed thanks to agent orange.
and than there are all those murderous dictators who were supported by the USA. |
So everyone who dies in a war that the US is a part of was killed by the US military? Is that how you count?
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Kind of a silly argument, guys. The US government and the military it commands are responsible for untold deaths, hundreds of thousands of people at least and probably well into millions. As many as Hitler? I don't know. Does that really matter?
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | It's not the declaration of war that is at issue (nobody seems to do that any more); it's the authorization from Congress. |
Congress authorised the 'war on terror'. This is what happens when you go to war against states of mind. Also, this is hardly the first time an executive order designated targets without congressional approval, either. |
Did you really only make it to the end of BK's first sentence before you knee-jerked? Because he addressed that (extremely silly) objection further in his post.
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audiodef
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| audiodef wrote: |
The United States military has killed far more innocent civilians (including the peaceful natives who were here first and were willing to coexist) |
As usual, this entire demographic was ignored even when they were explicitly mentioned. 
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wildhorse
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| My biggest problem with all that killing by the USA is that our governments in the EU still see these fucks as partners. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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Partners in crime.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | It's not the declaration of war that is at issue (nobody seems to do that any more); it's the authorization from Congress. |
Congress authorised the 'war on terror'. This is what happens when you go to war against states of mind. Also, this is hardly the first time an executive order designated targets without congressional approval, either. |
Congress authorized military operations specifically limited to al Qaeda and affiliated actors. They begrudgingly authorized the invasion of Iraq. They didn't authorize endless military operations against anybody the President happens to see as a threat anywhere.
In fact, in Obama's authorized war against Libya, we were fighting on the SAME SIDE as AQIM (al Qaeda in Maghreb).
Now, all that is necessary is for Obama to explain to Congress what we're doing in Yemen and why it is escalating to the point of being a military operation, as opposed to covert operations. Since these people they are targeting are quite probably affiliated or at least fighting on the same side as al Qaeda, who at that location pose a threat of radicalization in Saudi Arabia as well as to oil commerce, I don't think there would be much of a problem. But he needs to maintain the public mandate for his military operations; he can't just go making war anywhere he wants to against anybody he wants to.
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