absurd and long /usr discussion on gentoo-dev

VoidMage · Advocate Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 4810

@genstorm: that quote is a bit imprecise - there's no difference between separate /usr and separate /var.
It comes down to a simple thing: if a tool used in an udev rule needs something that's on /usr / /var/ / etc., if the location is a separate partition, it needs to be mounted before udev runs.

genstorm · Advocate Joined: 05 Apr 2007 Posts: 2241 Location: Austria

Maybe I'm completely dumb now, but shouldn't udev be able to mount /var on demand, then apply the udev rule?
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VoidMage · Advocate Joined: 14 Oct 2006 Posts: 4810

That's just the thing - it's not udev's job.
Early mounts, if not dealt with by initramfs, lie in the domain of init system, whether openrc, systemd or otherwise.

bell · Guru Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Posts: 360

My two cents to this ill-considered change. I think the idea to split udev into 2 parts as previous discussed (early stage and late stage) is the right way.
The late stage is possible by

cach0rr0 · Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:24 am Post subject:

dunno, but i just dropped udev for mdev. no issues aside from a)needing to add a few bits to /etc/conf.d/modules, b)setting up an xorg.conf. Both of which were painless.

Now is where I grab my popcorn and watch for a bit, until this becomes a clusterfuck 6 months from now and they change their minds.
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depontius · Advocate Joined: 05 May 2004 Posts: 2156

avx · Advocate Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 2063

@depontius, 'USE=mdev emerge busybox', as can be seen by a look at virtual/dev-manager.
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cach0rr0 · Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:36 am Post subject:

der bastler · Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2003 Posts: 222

A binary log? Well, that would nuke my current event-based stateless automation approach on my ThinkPad...
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cach0rr0 · Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject:

miket · Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:54 am Post subject:

Here's a tragicomic corner case:

I use Linux Containers on one machine and I have KDE 4.8 on one of the guests. It runs great--with X forwarding (using Xephyr for the whole desktop or over SSH for a window)--or I could use VPN. What I can't use on the guest is evdev. I have to have udev installed on the guest because of dependencies, but it is completely quiescent. It would be handy if it *could* receive some events, especially for the enumeration of devices made visible to the guest, but that's not where the Funtimes crowd wants to spread its love. We see lots of effort to support multiseat configurations, but I have ZERO interest in that. (My suspicion is that the entire effort behind all those Kits had multiseat as their main motivation.)

The funny thing is that I have read lots of insistent messages in the Debian mailing lists about how Linux is moving to being event-centric. This somehow is the justification for going to an event-driven init and moving udev into the init system. The thing is that inside of containers an event-driven init could never get you past go.

So there. I have an uneventful KDE in that LXC guest. I can watch TV on it, though.

der bastler · Apprentice Joined: 13 Apr 2003 Posts: 222

Yamakuzure · Posted: Mon May 14, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject:

Nice discussion so far.

A while back I have migrated /usr back into / on my gentoo machines. Since then all troubles are gone and I can stay being "initrd-free". Fine.
After that I took a closer look at where I am working.
In this whole company and all customers we work at (That's about 50 desktops, 200 Servers, several Main Frames, dozens of Linux-driven NAS-Filers) my two gentoo boxes were the only ones with separate /usr partitions. (All servers are either AIX or Debian based) So I do ask myself, why so many people keep telling me that a separate /usr partition would be mandatory on servers. I've never seen one in reality. (Note: All those servers have nothing to do with internet business, maybe that's the reason?)

Of course I have parts within /usr that are not relevant to the boot process and simply put somewhere else, like /usr/portage or /usr/lib/debug. (And some other folders.) Some are symlinked somewhere that's available after mounting what's in fstab, or are simple mounts, like /usr/portage which resides on a reasonably sized ext2 partition. (That's just an example)

Instead of discussing whether having /usr on the the root partition is a good idea or not, I most often find myself thinking about how to unclutter /usr in general. this folders stuffed to the rim, no matter on which partition it resides.

But back to the topic, my real question is: Why is it such a good thing to have /usr on a separate partition? What is the reason? And I do not mean any "freeedom-of-choice"-issue (I'd agree with that anyway) but the practical view. What's the advantage?
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avx · Advocate Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 2063

cach0rr0 · Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:52 am Post subject:

Dont Panic · Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 5:22 am Post subject:

It's interesting how the Linux kernel project team seems to zealously protects backward compatibility, while other core projects seem to cast it to the wind.

cach0rr0 · Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 8:56 am Post subject:

DaggyStyle · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 4735

this is indeed a topic to watch as I'm in the same boat when it come to lvm, raid on root and separate /var. not mo mention the comments here :lol:

all in all, as I've said in another thread, forcing initrd is an abomination that should be vanquished.
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Etal · Veteran Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 1633

ulenrich · Guru Joined: 10 Oct 2010 Posts: 464

avx · Advocate Joined: 21 Jun 2004 Posts: 2063

ulenrich · Guru Joined: 10 Oct 2010 Posts: 464

please stop stupid Lennart bashings ...
- He plays well in a team, his systemd mailing list is a very productive.
- His first puleseaudio project might have been used early. But that piece of shit just reached level pulseaudio-2 and development of it is accelerating.
- The total-distro /usr move is Red Hat initiated, in their commercial interest. And followed by SUSE and others.
- As Gentoo maintainers stated this move is feasable by utilizing busybox or initrd.

So, what

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DaggyStyle · Advocate Joined: 22 Mar 2006 Posts: 4735

Etal · Veteran Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 1633

vapier created busybox[sep-usr] that can mount /usr before starting init, so from my understanding they're not even needed anymore.
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cach0rr0 · Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: