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dmitchell
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 Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:38 am Post subject: |
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I'm pretty happy blaming Obama for the operation, which may have been illegal under domestic law, international law, the laws of war, and the Geneva conventions. (Not to mention the "What would we think if someone did it to us?" test.) So by all means, mcgruff, continue to claim Obama was in charge.
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Muso
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| richk449 wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | | Old School wrote: | | I still say it was a gutsy call on the President's part. |
For giving an "OK" for the SEALs to go into Pakistan... yeah, I can see that. |
Yea, it takes a lot of guts to order a bunch of soldiers to go kill a dude. The real gutsy move would have been to insist that the military bring Osama back for a trial. |
Yes, I do agree with that. But Obama's had a 'take no prisoners' approach from the moment he assumed supreme executive power. He though a bit of water up the nose was so bad that he just flat out KILLED every 'enemy combatant'.
Homicide = ok!
Water spritz = morally wrong!
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:45 am Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | Yes, I do agree with that. But Obama's had a 'take no prisoners' approach from the moment he assumed supreme executive power. He though a bit of water up the nose was so bad that he just flat out KILLED every 'enemy combatant'.
Homicide = ok!
Water spritz = morally wrong! |
You make a valid point. A point I agree with. But I don't think we should be trivializing water boarding. It is torture.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| richk449 wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | | Old School wrote: | | I still say it was a gutsy call on the President's part. |
For giving an "OK" for the SEALs to go into Pakistan... yeah, I can see that. |
Yea, it takes a lot of guts to order a bunch of soldiers to go kill a dude. The real gutsy move would have been to insist that the military bring Osama back for a trial. |
Obama doesn't do trials. We don't need no stinkin' due process; he was a military combatant... oh wait... I forgot... Obama doesn't have those either; they went away the same day the "Global War on Terror" became "Overseas Contingency Operations".
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | Yes, I do agree with that. But Obama's had a 'take no prisoners' approach from the moment he assumed supreme executive power. He though a bit of water up the nose was so bad that he just flat out KILLED every 'enemy combatant'.
Homicide = ok!
Water spritz = morally wrong! |
You make a valid point. A point I agree with. But I don't think we should be trivializing water boarding. It is torture. |
So is Language Theory; just ask wswartzendruber (and he's been through Parris Island).
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Muso
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | You make a valid point. A point I agree with. But I don't think we should be trivializing water boarding. It is torture. |
It's not nice, but it does not cause permanent damage. Bamboo shoots under finger and toenails, electric currents through the testes, broken limbs, flailing, burning, etc etc etc...
that is a different level than some water that causes no permanent physical damage.
To illustrate the point further, many in the military are water boarded to train them in how to deal with it. They do not get their limbs broken, have bamboo shoots hammered into their nails, have electricity shot through their gonads, etc.
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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Torture is forcing someone to endure what cannot be endured. Whether or not they get maimed in the process is neither here nor there. Torture is 100% psychological and only incidentally physical.
"Friendly," "character-building" torture isn't really torture at all because you know you can make it stop any time you want.
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | I'm pretty happy blaming Obama for the operation, which may have been illegal under domestic law, international law, the laws of war, and the Geneva conventions. (Not to mention the "What would we think if someone did it to us?" test.) So by all means, mcgruff, continue to claim Obama was in charge. |
I don't need to claim anything. Facts are facts.
Given that Bin Laden was in a "friendly" country the ground op was the best option. Fuck the rules he's too important, as Obama knew very well. The moral failure would have been not to act.
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notageek
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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Obama is going to celebrate the anniversary of the killing by doing an interview in the situation room, where the famous photograph was taken.
Meanwhile Romney will appear of Ellen Degeneres' show.
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Muso wrote: | It's not nice, but it does not cause permanent damage. Bamboo shoots under finger and toenails, electric currents through the testes, broken limbs, flailing, burning, etc etc etc...
that is a different level than some water that causes no permanent physical damage. |
Maybe it is and maybe it isn't, but I don't think causing permanent physical damage is the defining characteristic of torture, do you?
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notageek
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Who the hell is Muso?
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dmitchell
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | Given that Bin Laden was in a "friendly" country the ground op was the best option. Fuck the rules he's too important, as Obama knew very well. The moral failure would have been not to act. |
Next time I find myself in court I'll let you know how the "Fuck the rules it was too important" defense goes over. As for not acting, who said anything about not acting? He could have acted and done so in ways that were more clearly within the confines of the law.
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energyman76b
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: |
You can tell from the famous photo who is in charge and who is along for the ride. See the looks on the faces of Obama and Hillary? That's fear, bewilderment, and helplessness -- they don't even know what the fuck is going on. |
no, not really. Hillary, yes. Obama looks tense - because he knew that whatever could go wrong would be blamed on him. But there in no fear nor bewilderment.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| energyman76b wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: |
You can tell from the famous photo who is in charge and who is along for the ride. See the looks on the faces of Obama and Hillary? That's fear, bewilderment, and helplessness -- they don't even know what the fuck is going on. |
no, not really. Hillary, yes. Obama looks tense - because he knew that whatever could go wrong would be blamed on him. But there in no fear nor bewilderment. |
He's in a bystander position, literally wide-eyed and cowering.
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| dmitchell wrote: | | Next time I find myself in court I'll let you know how the "Fuck the rules it was too important" defense goes over. As for not acting, who said anything about not acting? He could have acted and done so in ways that were more clearly within the confines of the law. |
You mean bring him back for trial? There would be bloodshed and mayhem in the streets as every crazed fanatic in the world descended on America to take revenge.
Rules should be respected, most of the time, but they can only take you so far. That's the insidious evil of terrorism I suppose: the irresistable call to abandon civilised rules of society.
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mcgruff
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | He's in a bystander position, literally wide-eyed and cowering. |
Duh... once the op was under way they were all bystanders, including McRaven.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:07 am Post subject: Re: [mcgruff] Obama kills bin Laden |
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| Old School wrote: | We've all witnessed the crime dog's knob gobbling over Obama's tactical genius in personally taking command of the bin Laden raid in Abbottabad.
Just one problem.
| Leon Panetta wrote: | Received phone call from Tom Donilon who stated that the President made a decision with regard to AC1 [Abbottabad Compound 1]. The decision is to proceed with the assault.
The timing, operational decision making and control are in Admiral McRaven’s hands. The approval is provided on the risk profile presented to the President. Any additional risks are to be brought back to the President for his consideration. The direction is to go in and get bin Laden and if he is not there, to get out. Those instructions were conveyed to Admiral McRaven at approximately 10:45 am. |
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big dave will tell you that the most important role of an executive is to manage risk.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| mcgruff wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | He's in a bystander position, literally wide-eyed and cowering. |
Duh... once the op was under way they were all bystanders, including McRaven. |
That's right. McRaven was not "leading the mission". McRaven merely oversaw the planning and organization of operation. The actual mission commander was probably a field-grade officer (O-4 through O-6) in a command and control aircraft within range of the objective. He may have been reporting to another directly involved operational commander responsible for the overall operation including contingencies, at an operations center in Afghanistan (probably a one-star or two-star in this situation).
Now the White House wants us to believe that Obama is some kind of hero for having the courage to say, "Okay, go ahead." That's not courage. That's merely absence of morally reprehensibleness cowardice.
Courage is the men who sneaked around in Pakistan and found him, including ones who probably got caught and beheaded that we'll never know about. Courage is that doctor who retrieved a DNA sample, whom the Obama Administration then unconscionably identified to the world in their fap-fest, and who is probably having his balls electrocuted in a dungeon somewhere right now or has long since been incinerated. Courage is the men who got on those helicopters and flew through those heavily-defended mountain passes in the pitch black of night, landed a few miles away from a major Pakistani Army base, went into what might have been a heavily armed compound, and took his ass out while risking their own lives by not shooting any more people than necessary.
Obama's actions here are not heroic in any sense. All he did was what is expected of him, for once.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:56 am Post subject: Re: [mcgruff] Obama kills bin Laden |
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| sugar wrote: | | big dave will tell you that the most important role of an executive is to manage risk. |
Obama not fucking up his limited executive responsibility in this case does not make him the leader of this operation, nor does it make him a hero.
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sugar
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:59 am Post subject: Re: [mcgruff] Obama kills bin Laden |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | big dave will tell you that the most important role of an executive is to manage risk. |
Obama's not fucking up his executive responsibility in this case does not make him a hero. |
Romney would never have found him, and Bush spent 2 terms trying. If all Obama had to do was 'manage risk', then what was so hard about getting Osama in the first place?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: Re: [mcgruff] Obama kills bin Laden |
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| sugar wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | sugar wrote: | | big dave will tell you that the most important role of an executive is to manage risk. |
Obama's not fucking up his executive responsibility in this case does not make him a hero. |
Romney would never have found him, and Bush spent 2 terms trying. If all Obama had to do was 'manage risk', then what was so hard about getting Osama in the first place? |
You obviously aren't familiar with what went on, and haven't even read my earlier post describing it. What was hard about getting bin Laden was that he was completely out of action and hiding, very well, and under the wing of protection of the Pakistani ISI, in Pakistan. He was virtually incommunicado, with the exception of messages carried by one man. It's actually pretty phenomenal that we were able to locate him at all.
The intelligence efforts under Bush to locate bin Laden (specifically, interrogations of high-value detainees at Guantanamo) determined the existence and general location of the courier, late in Bush's term of office. It took more time to further develop this intelligence. That effort, set in motion long before Obama was even nominated to run for office, finally bore fruit after Obama had been in office for a year (during which time he didn't even pay attention to the matter for almost a year).
Romney would have done exactly what Obama did, despite having said things now to minimize the importance of bin Laden finally having been eliminated. He would have followed the recommendations of the military. And, he's partly right -- while taking bin Laden out struck a blow to al Qaeda's morale (and that of the Taliban), has it made any difference? What has changed? Nothing.
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Last edited by BoneKracker on Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John R. Graham
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Split off from where this thread got out of hand. It's worth mentioning that even Off the Wall has posting guidelines. Please respect them.
- John
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