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notageek
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 05 Jun 2008
Posts: 78
Location: Bangalore, India
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 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 8:26 am Post subject: How free speech can get you fired |
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17660865
| Quote: | In America, everyone has the right to free speech. But legally spoken remarks often have severe consequences - as the baseball coach who praised Fidel Castro has now discovered.
Ozzie Guillen, manager of the Miami Marlins baseball team, earned a five-game suspension after praising Fidel Castro in a Time magazine interview.
John Derbyshire, the conservative columnist, lost his job at the National Review after publishing an article warning his children to, among other things, avoid amusement parks with a high concentration of black visitors. |
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Clad in Sky
l33t
Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 657
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Isn't that a sad but known fact?
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Kali Ma
Now it's autumn of the aeons
Dance with your sword
Now it's time for the harvest |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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| Clad in Sky wrote: | | Isn't that a sad but known fact? |
known yes. not sure how sad. |
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wildhorse
Tux's lil' helper
Joined: 16 Mar 2006
Posts: 148
Location: Estados Unidos De América
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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It's sad. Because the USA has been a role model to me. Now, with Captain America lying dead in the cesspit, all beliefs shattered, there is no place to go.  |
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Yamakuzure
l33t
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 951
Location: Bardowick, Germany
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Is it really "freedom of speech" if you solicit racism or praise a cruel dictator in public? - just a thought...
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I *do* know that I easily aggravate people due to my condensed writing. Rule of thumb: If I wrote anything that can be understood in two different ways, and one way offends you, then I meant the other!  |
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pitcrawler
Apprentice
Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Oklahoma, USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| It's simple. The right to free speech means the government won't incarcerate or punish you for saying any crap you want (Although there are exceptions). Anyone else is free to do whatever they like in response to your speech, as long as it's within the law. |
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| pitcrawler wrote: | | It's simple. The right to free speech means the government won't incarcerate or punish you for saying any crap you want (Although there are exceptions). Anyone else is free to do whatever they like in response to your speech, as long as it's within the law. |
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There is free speech, and there is common sense. Use both. |
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Muso
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2002
Posts: 655
Location: The Holy city of Honolulu
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | Clad in Sky wrote: | | Isn't that a sad but known fact? |
known yes. not sure how sad. |
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Free speech doesn't protect you from suffering the consequences of saying stupid things, it prevents the government from banning speech.
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16029
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Which is why employers should have access to your social networks, that way they can make sure your 1st amendment isn't interfering with their "bottom line."
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
In Loving Memory
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Which is why employers should have access to your social networks, that way they can make sure your 1st amendment isn't interfering with their "bottom line." |
Which is why you can excercise your right and refuse to work for such employers. You are not guaranteed anything in this life, but you have choices. You can always start your own company with liberal policies. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | Which is why you can excercise your right and refuse to work for such employers. |
Exactly. At least until you run out of options, or your options are so few to begin with.
| Prenj wrote: | | you have choices. You can always start your own company with liberal policies. |
I'm amazed every person doesn't have their own already! I mean, you'd have to be some kind of imbecile not to!
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
In Loving Memory
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BoneKracker
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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Location: U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Is it really "freedom of speech" if you solicit racism or praise a cruel dictator in public? - just a thought... |
Of course. Do you really want to live in a society where all objectionable speech is Verbotten? We can also have little robots follow people around and administer a painful shock to the anus if they deviate from Newspeak.
More to the point, whose definition of objectionable are you going to use? The minute you start allowing to the state to control expression (other than punishing libel, slander, fraud and incitement to commit actual crimes), you destroy the people's single-most important means of bringing about change or preventing abuses of power. Germans are among those one would expect to have learned this lesson dearly.
If you give up free speech, you have given away the cornerstone of all your rights. Free speech must be protected. People are made to live with the consequences of objectionable speech in other ways (loss of business, loss of reputation, social ostracization, and so on).
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
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Old School
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Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 231
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:23 am Post subject: |
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The Courts decided long ago that there is no such thing as free speech in the workplace.
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Prenj
n00b
Joined: 20 Nov 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Mostar, BiH
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | Prenj wrote: | | Which is why you can excercise your right and refuse to work for such employers. |
Exactly. At least until you run out of options, or your options are so few to begin with.
| Prenj wrote: | | you have choices. You can always start your own company with liberal policies. |
I'm amazed every person doesn't have their own already! I mean, you'd have to be some kind of imbecile not to! |
Point is, if more people would actually excercise civil disobedience, employers would have to take care, else they lose profits. As it is, they don't have to, cos people are pussyfied.
History of mankind was never fair. It is always power struggle. The biggest coup was making so many believe that it was the thing of the past, and it doesn't happen anymore. If you dig around, you will see that it is just a scam, there has always been a power struggle. Difference between now and then is that middle class used to be somewhat secure, as long as they stayed within certain political and behavioural limits, but now with globalisation, middle class is not needed anymore to make profit. There are educated people in china and india who work for less money, so middle class in US and EU is out in the cold, and can taste what rest of the world has always known.
And for example, if US citizenry doesnt wise up and vote for the only guy establishment is actively fighting, you'll get more of the same. At least you have a candidate that makes sense, unlike many other countries out there. |
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BoneKracker
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Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
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I think that is changing rapidly. With the lemming effect of the Internet and social networking, businesses face almost immediate and potentially devastating backlash when one of their employees does something most people consider unacceptable.
Also, in case I wasn't clear above, in an "employment at will" scenario, an employer firing an employee over something like this does fall under the category of "social pressure" (as opposed to enforcement by the state). Employers are well-advised to remember that they can also face backlash for being perceived to have violated someone's right to express themselves.
A good example is the case a few months back of a professor who responded to a university-wide solicitation for holiday goodies to send to "the troops" by hitting "Reply All" and ranting about how nobody should be supporting a bunch of baby-killers (and so on). That university was inundated with calls for his resignation, foundations withdrew support, people pulled their kids out of school, and so on. But the professor was not even disciplined, much less fired. The University said that, in the spirit of education, they believe in free speech and a free exchange of ideas, and that was the end of it.
On the other hand, Amazon.com, who published "The pedophile's guide" (or some such crap), and initially stood behind it as "free speech", saying they have a policy against censorship of any kind, eventually caved into public pressure and took it off their shelves.
There is sort of a "free market" effect (or "trial-by-mob" if you prefer), when it comes to social judgement of speech. Nevertheless, the state in particular must be kept the hell out of it, or you don't have a free society and nobody can complain about the state. A good case in point here is how it's considered "hate speech" in Britain to complain loudly about immigration policy.
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Oldthinkers unbellyfeel INGSOC.
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pjp
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Joined: 16 Apr 2002
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Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| Old School wrote: | | The Courts decided long ago that there is no such thing as free speech in the workplace. |
In is the key word. Or at least it should be.
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | juniper wrote: | | Clad in Sky wrote: | | Isn't that a sad but known fact? |
known yes. not sure how sad. |
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Free speech doesn't protect you from suffering the consequences of saying stupid things, it prevents the government from banning speech. |
there should be consequences for saying smart/stupid stuff. one consequence for saying stupid shit shouldn't be that you get muzzled by the government.
I am not saying the legal maze of libel laws and the court of public opinion are perfect or even mediocre, but protection from those things isn't what's meant by "freedom of speech". |
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aidanjt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Old School wrote: | | The Courts decided long ago that there is no such thing as free speech in the workplace. |
The Courts also decided long ago that the monarch is the God appointed ruler for life and their children will inherit the kingdom.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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pjp
Administrator
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16029
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Prenj wrote: | | Point is, if more people would actually excercise civil disobedience, employers would have to take care, else they lose profits. As it is, they don't have to, cos people are pussyfied. |
Yes, keeping your house and/or providing for your family is being "pussified." I'd actually argue that enduring such situations can be the opposite.
| Prenj wrote: | | And for example, if US citizenry doesnt wise up and vote for the only guy establishment is actively fighting, you'll get more of the same. At least you have a candidate that makes sense |
I agree completely, but it isn't going to happen. At least I don't believe it will in my lifetime. On the plus side, I'm not immortal.
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lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.
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Yamakuzure
l33t
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 951
Location: Bardowick, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 10:47 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Yamakuzure wrote: | | Is it really "freedom of speech" if you solicit racism or praise a cruel dictator in public? - just a thought... |
Of course. Do you really want to live in a society where all objectionable speech is Verbotten? We can also have little robots follow people around and administer a painful shock to the anus if they deviate from Newspeak.
More to the point, whose definition of objectionable are you going to use? The minute you start allowing to the state to control expression (other than punishing libel, slander, fraud and incitement to commit actual crimes), you destroy the people's single-most important means of bringing about change or preventing abuses of power. Germans are among those one would expect to have learned this lesson dearly.
If you give up free speech, you have given away the cornerstone of all your rights. Free speech must be protected. People are made to live with the consequences of objectionable speech in other ways (loss of business, loss of reputation, social ostracization, and so on). |
First: I never wrote anything about "Giving up free speech". I just have problems with people hiding behind "Freedom of speech" to allow themselves to hurt others. In other words: Would it be okay if the KKK advertised their cause in the New York Times because of "Freedom of Speech"? Would it be morally in order to allow fascists to solicit the holocaust on TV? Is it okay to attack human dignity with whatever you like to say?
As Prenj wrote: ... and there is common sense
And here in Germany article one of our constitutional law says: "Human dignity is inviolable." ...and "Freedom of speech" does _not_ negate that.
Side note: It is "verboten" with one 't', but nice try, though!
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I *do* know that I easily aggravate people due to my condensed writing. Rule of thumb: If I wrote anything that can be understood in two different ways, and one way offends you, then I meant the other! |
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Oerpi
n00b
Joined: 20 Jun 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Would it be okay if the KKK advertised their cause in the New York Times because of "Freedom of Speech"? |
Yes it shouold be okay for them to do just that, as long as they don't actually try to incite actual crimes, problem here will probably be to make the NYT approve of your ad.
| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Would it be morally in order to allow fascists to solicit the holocaust on TV? |
Incitement of actual crimes is not free speech.
| Yamakuzure wrote: | | Is it okay to attack human dignity with whatever you like to say? |
Free speech must not care about hurt feelings, not being offended is not a human right.
Also whatever you may think we have in Germany, our free speech is not as free as you may think, even though I admit that the exceptions probably don't effect 98% of the people. Just think of the case against Richard Williamson the catholic Bishop. Is it stupid to deny the Holocaust? Yes I think it is, should it be considered a crime? No I think it shouldn't. People should be allowed to prove to the world that they are stupid. |
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Yamakuzure
l33t
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 951
Location: Bardowick, Germany
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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How easy it is to be misunderstood... In short: Both mentioned people in the cited article had the right to say what they said, but it would have been a shame if it didn't result in consequences. "Freedom of Speech" is proven by the fact that their sayings have been published. And neither where the consequences imposed by the government nor where their articles censored by the government. My posts were just meant to point out, that "Freedom of Speech" has nothing whatsoever to do with the consequences you face afterwards, so there is no harm done to the "Freedom" itself.
But my first post was way too vague, all right...
... oh and here in Germany it is exactly the same. Say what you like but live with the consequences.
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I *do* know that I easily aggravate people due to my condensed writing. Rule of thumb: If I wrote anything that can be understood in two different ways, and one way offends you, then I meant the other! |
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aidanjt
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Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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| The Earth wrote: | | Free speech doesn't protect you from suffering the consequences of saying stupid things, it prevents the government from banning speech. |
Freedom of speech is just as important a protection against private thugs as it is from government thugs.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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juniper
l33t
Joined: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 756
Location: EU
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| aidanjt wrote: | | The Earth wrote: | | Free speech doesn't protect you from suffering the consequences of saying stupid things, it prevents the government from banning speech. |
Freedom of speech is just as important a protection against private thugs as it is from government thugs. |
they were fired from their jobs. they didn't have their legs broken by their bosses. different. |
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aidanjt
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Location: Rep. of Ireland
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| juniper wrote: | | they were fired from their jobs. they didn't have their legs broken by their bosses. different. |
I haven't seen the government going around breaking legs, either. And yet freedom of speech is still very important. Speech protection is still very important, especially in a fascism heavy place like the US where the people depend on their employers for shelter, food, healthcare, and so on because their government doesn't care much for their general welfare.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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