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dirkfanick
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's always sad when linux acts too much like windows (once did?*).

*I didn't use windows for quite a while. Btw: Does windows need virus-scanners anymore?
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devilheart
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirkfanick wrote:
It's always sad when linux acts too much like windows (once did?*).

*I didn't use windows for quite a while. Btw: Does windows need virus-scanners anymore?
It does. It will also complain loudly if you don't have one
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dirkfanick
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
It will also complain loudly if you don't have one


WTF!
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pjp
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder which distro they use...
Quote:
Linux Foundation infrastructure including LinuxFoundation.org, Linux.com, and their subdomains are down for maintenance due to a security breach that was discovered on September 8, 2011.

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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Screwbuntu?
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dirkfanick
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I wonder which distro they use...


gentoo?
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pjp
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems unlikely or they would have mentioned it in the list.
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jd2066
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

devilheart wrote:
dirkfanick wrote:
It's always sad when linux acts too much like windows (once did?*).

*I didn't use windows for quite a while. Btw: Does windows need virus-scanners anymore?
It does. It will also complain loudly if you don't have one


I have used Windows from 3.11 (In 1992 or so when I was 6) to Windows 7 and still do so I can answer this.
In 2006 my friend who was a big fan of Gentoo Linux (I'm not sure if he still is, I haven't talked to him in many years since I moved to a different state) convinced me to try Gentoo Linux so I did and am quite happy with it as a server/dvr with mythtv which is how I use it today.
I did use Gentoo Linux as a desktop install at the time in a dual boot with Windows XP and a few years ago I had a dualboot between Gentoo Linux and Windows Vista (Which I used most of the time).
So far I use Windows 7 Professional/Ultimate (Depending on need) 64-bit as my OS for desktop usage.
I use it because they are a few main programs there are no non-windows equivalents I'm aware of that works as well as the software I use.
On the AntiVirus, in Windows XP Service Pack 2 Microsoft included a feature called the security center, this program checks that you have automatic updates turned on, antivirus software installed, if there is antivirus software installed check if it has the latest Virus definitions and either Windows Firewall turned on or a third party Firewall in use.
If any of those aren't the case, a taskbar balloon will appear to inform you of this fact. If you don't have AntiVirus software or your AntiVirus doesn't use the Security Center APIs to tell Windows about it then the notifications can get really annoying.
You can tell Security Center you have AntiVirus software installed regardless of if you do and will won't bother you about it.
In an update to Security Center released later either in Windows XP Service Pack 3 or Windows Vista (I'm not sure), it requires some signed files or something that make it harder for third party programs that are not real AntiVirus programs to try to trick the user by telling Security Center, they have something they don't.
Sadly this doesn't help because there is some Fake AntiVirus software online (installed like spyware via web browsers) that is clones the look of Security Center and shows similar messages and says if you buy their software the problem will go way.
Of course this is not true as their software is the problem and from my experience of doing tech support for people, it is a major pain to remove as because Windows XP has Administrator access for users by default, these programs can install a rootkit that modifies the kernel to hide it's existence from the file system so normal antivirus/spyware removal programs and Windows Explorer can't see the files or remove them.
There are now updates to those programs those that search for rootkits and are usually able to remove them.
These Security Centers are very poor clones of Security Center and for me it's really easy to spot them. For the average user, they don't really know the difference.

I ran Windows XP from 2003 to a couple years ago and never got a virus. The main trick is to not click shady links and download things from them. Something that is really hard for the average user to figure out.
In Windows Vista they made some minor changes to Security Center such as include checking if you have an spyware software installed and if you don't Microsoft bundled Windows Defender in Windows Vista.
In Windows 7 they made major changes to Security Center, they created a new version of it called Action Center that also tells you backup your files (with Windows Backup and Restore), and other general maintenance notices.
If you want to you can tell the Action Center to not warn you about anything.

A couple years ago, Microsoft released a free AntiVirus/Antispy program called Microsoft Security Essentials that is an update to Windows Defender with AntiVirus scanning that supports Windows XP, Windows Vista and Windows 7.
It seems to have a fairly low performance impact on newer computers (Pre-2005 computers generally will be slowed down significantly with any AntiVirus software) so I put it on all my computers now.

Based on what I have read Windows 8 will bundle a program similar to Security Essentials eliminating the need for third-party AntiVirus.
That is great but it seems like that could cause Microsoft AntiTrust issues because it AntiVirus/AntiSpyway programs are a big industry now.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In other words, "yes".
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jd2066
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
In other words, "yes".

Not exactly. If know what you are doing, you can run without AntiVirus software. I run Microsoft Security Essentials at the moment just in case but I don't really need in it. It hasn't found anything harmful and in fact has just been annoying as it wanted to remove a password viewer from nirsoft.net, an Android root tool, FireSheep and UltraVNC. All things I purposely installed installed myself.
It did find some adware toolbar called OpenCandy but I probably could have just decided not to install it like I do with Google Toolbar, Yahoo Toolbar and Bing Bar.
Thinking about it now, I should just remove it and go back to running without AntiVirus as it's not really helping me.

So in short the answer is if you don't download things from untrusted web sites then you don't need AntiVirus software.

I've found that it does appear the fact that Windows Vista/7 accounts run as standard users and you need to use a prompt/logon (depending on how UAC is setup) to get Administrator access seems to help, I haven't seen that many cases of Viruses (if at all, I'm not sure I have; I think it's just been adware such as toolbars bundled with other software people installed with Administrator access) on Windows Vista/7 computers (though I only help people in my small town so that doesn't prove much but I did see a lot of Virus related issues with Windows XP).
I do know that *nix based systems have been doing the idea of "don't run regular programs as a user with Administrator powers) for a very long time (in fact I think they were designed that way) so it does seem that Microsoft took quite a while before they figured out that is how Windows should do things by default.

Edit:
I removed Microsoft Security Essentials and disabled the action center notifications. It did want to switch to Windows Defender and I had to open the Action Center manually to stop it as each time I clicked the notification balloon it automatically enabled Windows Defender.
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RazielFMX
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On my Windows 7 machine (until there is a way to get swtor and my steam games working on Linux reliably, I will continue to use Windows 7), I run avast anti-virus (the free version). The theory that not clicking shady links will save you from viruses is bogus. I've been to trustworthy sites that avast has flagged as trying to install malware or trojans. How? Ads. Sites have a contract with an ad provider whose API lacks proper guardrails (example: injecting raw data into a div tag via an ajax invocation to a remote site).

Running windows without any AV protection is never a good idea (you could make an analogy to other actions that require "protection", but I leave that exercise to the reader) even if you know what you are doing.

Arguably, running AV on Linux/Mac is not a bad idea either; I believe AVG has a product for Android these days.

Vulnerabilities exist in software. This is a simple fact. Linux is not immune (nor is Mac, for the mac fans out there). It is about market share; most desktops are Windows (especially if you strip out competent users), so there is more malicious software written for Windows. If one day we see Linux become the desktop of choice for the masses, you will see a sharp rise in the amount of malware showing up on Linux. Especially among the user groups that know enough to be dangerous to themselves (like setting NOPASSWD in your sudoers file on Ubuntu because you are tired of typing your password for every administrative task you need to do).
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gerard82
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The marketshare again.
Better find out how MSWindows came about versus the Linux origins.
Linux as we all know is a clone of Unix: A professional operating system for office university and similar use.
When you have a system to be used by many you must guard against pranksters or worse.
So even before the internet existed Unix already had the setup to prevent things like unwanted stuff to be installed system wide.
Windows always had to be downward compatible and it's setup makes it hard to separate system and user stuff.
I am not saying it is impossible to attack a Linux system but it's not something a script kiddie can accomplish.
Gerard.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gerard82 wrote:
The marketshare again.
Better find out how MSWindows came about versus the Linux origins.
Linux as we all know is a clone of Unix: A professional operating system for office university and similar use.
When you have a system to be used by many you must guard against pranksters or worse.
So even before the internet existed Unix already had the setup to prevent things like unwanted stuff to be installed system wide.
Windows always had to be downward compatible and it's setup makes it hard to separate system and user stuff.
I am not saying it is impossible to attack a Linux system but it's not something a script kiddie can accomplish.
Gerard.

++

I used to say that "Windows was not designed from the beginning as a network-interconnected, multi-user system." This was painfully, painfully obvious back around the Windows 3.x days. Even after they created the somewhat Unix-like NT operating system, they re-created many of their bad practices and processes, born of that disconnected, single-user context, when they created Windows 2000 and XP. For example, by default a home user was set up with unrestricted, unmitigated administrative privileges, and all their processes ran as such.
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nomilieu
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jd2066 wrote:
Based on what I have read Windows 8 will bundle a program similar to Security Essentials eliminating the need for third-party AntiVirus.
That is great but it seems like that could cause Microsoft AntiTrust issues because it AntiVirus/AntiSpyway programs are a big industry now.

I doubt it. That's like saying you can't build a mechanically sound automobile since auto repair is a big industry now.
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jd2066
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

nomilieu wrote:
jd2066 wrote:
Based on what I have read Windows 8 will bundle a program similar to Security Essentials eliminating the need for third-party AntiVirus.
That is great but it seems like that could cause Microsoft AntiTrust issues because it AntiVirus/AntiSpyway programs are a big industry now.

I doubt it. That's like saying you can't build a mechanically sound automobile since auto repair is a big industry now.

That is a good point, I didn't think about that.
There will probably still be programs like Spybot and other tools to remove malware (Viruses, Trojans, Spyware, etc.) as tools like Spybot can get remove malware that some AntiVirus scanners miss.

It still doesn't sound good for big security companies like McAfee and Symantec if users can get free Firewall and free ant-malware software bundled with the OS.
I was never a big fan of McAfee and Norton though as they just had big suites of Security programs that slowed things down and auto deleted software I installed because of it's a hacking tool.
They used to to this with Sysinternals but now that Sysinterals is owned by Microsoft, I don't think they are listed as hacking tools to be auto deleted but that doesn't help all the free software authors who's software gets listed and because they as just small groups of people or small companies the big anti-malware firms don't care as much as removing the false positives.
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