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slonocode
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 7:52 pm    Post subject: [split] slonocode's domestic violence thread Reply with quote

audiodef wrote:
You know what else is maddening? If I were a female victim of male domestic violence, it would be relatively easy to find legal assistance for this issue. Thanks to society's un-evolved views on domestic violence, I will get a lot of - at best - blank stares. Fucking hell.


It seems like a pretty normal response to me. Perhaps you could explain how it could happen.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
audiodef wrote:
You know what else is maddening? If I were a female victim of male domestic violence, it would be relatively easy to find legal assistance for this issue. Thanks to society's un-evolved views on domestic violence, I will get a lot of - at best - blank stares. Fucking hell.


It seems like a pretty normal response to me. Perhaps you could explain how it could happen.

Don't be an ignobigot. In Canada, the U.S. and Great Britain, between 38% and 50% of domestic abuse victims are men, and it only tends to be reported when there is serious injury or death:
http://www.batteredmen.com/batrcan.htm

Also, when you are deaf, people can sneak up behind you very easily.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
slonocode wrote:
audiodef wrote:
You know what else is maddening? If I were a female victim of male domestic violence, it would be relatively easy to find legal assistance for this issue. Thanks to society's un-evolved views on domestic violence, I will get a lot of - at best - blank stares. Fucking hell.


It seems like a pretty normal response to me. Perhaps you could explain how it could happen.

Don't be an ignobigot. In Canada, the U.S. and Great Britain, between 38% and 50% of domestic abuse victims are men, and it only tends to be reported when there is serious injury or death:
http://www.batteredmen.com/batrcan.htm

Also, when you are deaf, people can sneak up behind you very easily.



Impressive website for sure. I'm not talking about a guy getting slapped once or kicked once. I'm talking about what the op describes as habitually violently abusive to the point of ruining his life and finances.

Or were you making a joke?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
Impressive website for sure. I'm not talking about a guy getting slapped once or kicked once. I'm talking about what the op describes as habitually violently abusive to the point of ruining his life and finances.

Or were you making a joke?
It isn't gender dependent. You seem to think it is.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2011 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on guys, don't feed the troll. You know better.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

He did ask for an explanation of how it could happen, so there's a chance he genuinely doesn't want to remain ignorant.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
slonocode wrote:
Impressive website for sure. I'm not talking about a guy getting slapped once or kicked once. I'm talking about what the op describes as habitually violently abusive to the point of ruining his life and finances.

Or were you making a joke?
It isn't gender dependent. You seem to think it is.


No, what I think is that a man being physically dominated and abused by a woman is not the norm. I didn't say it couldn't happen.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmitchell wrote:
Come on guys, don't feed the troll. You know better.


LOL are u mad bro? You feel that me challenging that domestic violence is an equal proposition is trolling?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
pjp wrote:
slonocode wrote:
Impressive website for sure. I'm not talking about a guy getting slapped once or kicked once. I'm talking about what the op describes as habitually violently abusive to the point of ruining his life and finances.

Or were you making a joke?
It isn't gender dependent. You seem to think it is.


No, what I think is that a man being physically dominated and abused by a woman is not the norm. I didn't say it couldn't happen.


OK, it looks to me like you simply don't know much about this, and it's that simple.

So I'm going to see if I can help.

Domestic violence is always about power and control. There are plenty of members of both sexes that seek these things out in their personal and professional lives. Where it becomes domestic violence is when such a person takes it out on his or her partner.

In my case, I'm one of those "nice guys". I was raised to respect and never hit women - and I never have. Even when my ex was doing her worst, it never crossed my mind to hit back - I just wanted to get away. I met my ex in college. I thought she was awesome - she was smart and ambitious. The abuse started when we were engaged, although I didn't see it that way until two years after I'd left her, after six years of marriage. I also think she had mental problems requiring intense psychological care - including extreme co-dependency and general mental instability. Again, did not recognize these until much later. The bulk of the abuse was psychological - name calling, being derisive and taunting after sex, and putting me down in general (the biggest one being calling me "depressed" when A. I was not, generally, and B. of course I would be, considering her behavior). She would also hit me, usually with objects, and usually in ways it did not show but caused me a lot of mental distress. She would frequently hit me with a pillow while I was asleep. On top of all that, she would not allow me to sleep normally at all. So that's six years of sleep deprivation I'm still suffering the effects of via severe, almost migraine-type headaches if I do not watch my sleep amounts and times.

Being a "nice guy", all I cared about was being a good husband, but like with many abusers, nothing is ever good enough, so it was just a horrible nightmare for me that lasted six years. I pretty much left only because by the last time I ran out of the house (with no shoes - thank you, Target across the street!), she had so thoroughly beaten all my feelings of any kind out of me - including any feelings for her - that I no longer gave a shit about anything she did or said - and that included her pattern of texting me to say she had locked herself out of the house in the cold in order to lure me back out of pity.

I've been open about all this for the past few years, but what finally prompted me to start talking about this in public venues, as well as building a site for male survivors, is the fact that one very dangerous consequence of my ex's abuse is the tremendous tax debt she shafted me with by driving me out of my mind and leaving me not knowing what the fuck I was doing at any time. (Prior to having her in my life, I had no debt and any debt I took on I was paying off pretty well. I never fucked with my taxes.) She also destroyed all my jobs through her controlling behavior. So now I've got a disability, which I can handle by itself, no job, no chance of getting one, $100k in federal taxes, and I think only a couple of thousand in state taxes, none of which I'm able to pay off. The IRS (surprisingly) has told me not to worry about it (their words!) and put me in an uncollectable status. The state has kept coming after me no matter what I did or said, and now they've put my ability to have a car and be self-sufficient in jeopardy (where I live, public transportation doesn't cover it well enough).

At this last straw, I got MAD, MAD, MAD! I didn't put myself here - I'm just doing the best I can to get out of it, and these ass-hats are kicking a man when he's down. I decided to fight back not just against this one incident with my car, but against DV against men in general.

Anyway, I hope that helps. The specifics will vary greatly, of course, but it's a lot like that for many men who have been or are being abused - we don't think of it that way, we don't want to admit it, we're afraid no one will take us seriously (and they often don't. I even had a judge all but make fun of me).
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

audiodef wrote:
slonocode wrote:
pjp wrote:
slonocode wrote:
Impressive website for sure. I'm not talking about a guy getting slapped once or kicked once. I'm talking about what the op describes as habitually violently abusive to the point of ruining his life and finances.

Or were you making a joke?
It isn't gender dependent. You seem to think it is.


No, what I think is that a man being physically dominated and abused by a woman is not the norm. I didn't say it couldn't happen.


OK, it looks to me like you simply don't know much about this, and it's that simple.

So I'm going to see if I can help.

Domestic violence is always about power and control. There are plenty of members of both sexes that seek these things out in their personal and professional lives. Where it becomes domestic violence is when such a person takes it out on his or her partner.

In my case, I'm one of those "nice guys". I was raised to respect and never hit women - and I never have. Even when my ex was doing her worst, it never crossed my mind to hit back - I just wanted to get away. I met my ex in college. I thought she was awesome - she was smart and ambitious. The abuse started when we were engaged, although I didn't see it that way until two years after I'd left her, after six years of marriage. I also think she had mental problems requiring intense psychological care - including extreme co-dependency and general mental instability. Again, did not recognize these until much later. The bulk of the abuse was psychological - name calling, being derisive and taunting after sex, and putting me down in general (the biggest one being calling me "depressed" when A. I was not, generally, and B. of course I would be, considering her behavior). She would also hit me, usually with objects, and usually in ways it did not show but caused me a lot of mental distress. She would frequently hit me with a pillow while I was asleep. On top of all that, she would not allow me to sleep normally at all. So that's six years of sleep deprivation I'm still suffering the effects of via severe, almost migraine-type headaches if I do not watch my sleep amounts and times.

Being a "nice guy", all I cared about was being a good husband, but like with many abusers, nothing is ever good enough, so it was just a horrible nightmare for me that lasted six years. I pretty much left only because by the last time I ran out of the house (with no shoes - thank you, Target across the street!), she had so thoroughly beaten all my feelings of any kind out of me - including any feelings for her - that I no longer gave a shit about anything she did or said - and that included her pattern of texting me to say she had locked herself out of the house in the cold in order to lure me back out of pity.

I've been open about all this for the past few years, but what finally prompted me to start talking about this in public venues, as well as building a site for male survivors, is the fact that one very dangerous consequence of my ex's abuse is the tremendous tax debt she shafted me with by driving me out of my mind and leaving me not knowing what the fuck I was doing at any time. (Prior to having her in my life, I had no debt and any debt I took on I was paying off pretty well. I never fucked with my taxes.) She also destroyed all my jobs through her controlling behavior. So now I've got a disability, which I can handle by itself, no job, no chance of getting one, $100k in federal taxes, and I think only a couple of thousand in state taxes, none of which I'm able to pay off. The IRS (surprisingly) has told me not to worry about it (their words!) and put me in an uncollectable status. The state has kept coming after me no matter what I did or said, and now they've put my ability to have a car and be self-sufficient in jeopardy (where I live, public transportation doesn't cover it well enough).

At this last straw, I got MAD, MAD, MAD! I didn't put myself here - I'm just doing the best I can to get out of it, and these ass-hats are kicking a man when he's down. I decided to fight back not just against this one incident with my car, but against DV against men in general.

Anyway, I hope that helps. The specifics will vary greatly, of course, but it's a lot like that for many men who have been or are being abused - we don't think of it that way, we don't want to admit it, we're afraid no one will take us seriously (and they often don't. I even had a judge all but make fun of me).



Sounds like a dysfunctional relationship for sure. I still don't believe that this happens to men as often as to women. You also seem to indicate that in addition to her all of your employers and the government have beaten you also. You can imagine how one might get skeptical. With a quick google search it seems that the data used to substantiate equal violence towards men is flawed. Especially the kind of systematic and chronic type we are talking about here. A woman finally hitting back once was equal to the habitual violence the man inflicted. According to the data used it could be argued that child on adult violence was equal to adult on child violence.

None of this is to say that I think you are a bad person. I hope the best for you and I hope you can abandon being a victim as soon as possible.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
I still don't believe that this happens to men as often as to women.
Don't forget that is is rarely reported. And remember that emotional abuse is usually worse than physical abuse.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:

Sounds like a dysfunctional relationship for sure. I still don't believe that this happens to men as often as to women. You also seem to indicate that in addition to her all of your employers and the government have beaten you also. You can imagine how one might get skeptical. With a quick google search it seems that the data used to substantiate equal violence towards men is flawed. Especially the kind of systematic and chronic type we are talking about here. A woman finally hitting back once was equal to the habitual violence the man inflicted. According to the data used it could be argued that child on adult violence was equal to adult on child violence.

None of this is to say that I think you are a bad person. I hope the best for you and I hope you can abandon being a victim as soon as possible.


You need to step off, bro. I don't go around whining about being a victim. This shit happens, and it happens to at least as many men as it does to women. Thanks to people like you, men like us suffer just that little bit extra, thanks so much. In fact, I SHOULD be a broken, whiny loser, considering, but I'm not. I'm going to proceed with my life and overcome - no thanks to nay-sayers like you.

With a quick Google search, you can prove that Adam and Eve rode dinos. That doesn't mean it's true, and that's not genuine research, you fucking moron. You have no right to say it doesn't happen when you know nothing about it, and especially when you know no one to whom it has happened.

If I were a woman and you were putting me down like this, you'd get the shit beaten out of you, figuratively at least, by millions of people. It just tells me what a shit society we live in that you think you can get away with living in a distorted version of reality that only exists in your head.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy on the 'moron' stuff. I understand it is a powerful subject for you.

@slonocode: Please don't latch on to that comment and escalate.



audiodef wrote:
ZOMG dude, thank you. Yes, and I can testify to that from very personal experience. I would rather have been beaten up than had my mind messed with.
I'm certainly no expert, but it seems like you've mentioned a key component in the cycle. The "don't hit a woman" mentality. I am by no means advocating doing so, but along with teaching that mindset, it seems likely to cause problems with how to deal with emotional & psychological abuse from women.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
disi wrote:
That made me thinking if women have more partners during their lifetime than men? This would mean, that they probably also have less 'gaps' between relationships and therefore more opportunity to be abused?

They certainly have more opportunity, if there wasn't this society thing?
Well, they have to be in a relationship with someone else, so other than stereotypes of sexual conquest, I couldn't say if either gender has more relationships. It is easy to lean towards a belief that women are more often abused, but the key is in reporting. Women are ever more encouraged to report and escape abuse (good!), but that is not the case for men.

Men are likely to be scorned for even suggesting they might be abused -- see thread for example(s) -- not to mention the societal belief that it isn't plausible to happen. Except in the anomalous "extreme" case where the guy is some kind of weak or inept pitiful wretch. Which perpetuates the cycle of not reporting.

I'd also venture a wild ass guess that the nature or nurture role of protector in men is more likely to result in them not wanting to report the issue to protect their partner from punishment.

EDIT:

Oh, and that ignores the stereotype(?) of men not able to deal with or communicate their feelings.


Or maybe it happens to women much more than men. You've provided claims about why there is NO evidence. Do you have any evidence to support your premise that it happens in equal measure?
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My premise is that it is rarely reported. If you want to educate yourself on the subject, do so. It has been many years since I recall seeing anything specific on the subject, and I have no recollection of percentages. Certain types in the middle east squabble over how many Jews were killed in the holocaust, as if that makes much difference.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
My premise is that it is rarely reported. If you want to educate yourself on the subject, do so. It has been many years since I recall seeing anything specific on the subject, and I have no recollection of percentages. Certain types in the middle east squabble over how many Jews were killed in the holocaust, as if that makes much difference.


I have educated myself on the subject and everything points to it happening to women more than men. Most studies have used data compiled through the CTS scale which leaves out too many variables to be relied upon. As I said earlier a woman hitting back once a man who's hit her for years is considered as equal. According to the CTS and the same unreliable data child on adult violence is equal to adult on child violence.

PS
I would ask audiodef these things directly but he clearly can't respond without anger and personal insults. Which is sort of ironic.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is rarely reported, and often when it is, it is not taken seriously and does not get logged officially by local authorities. Naturally, data would be lacking in this way.

None of that detracts from the fact that it happens to men, and that it is disrespectful and itself a form of abuse to belittle men who have been abused.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

audiodef wrote:
It is rarely reported, and often when it is, it is not taken seriously and does not get logged officially by local authorities. Naturally, data would be lacking in this way.


Maybe but it certainly doesn't support your claim that it happens to men at least as much but probably more than women.


Quote:

None of that detracts from the fact that it happens to men, and that it is disrespectful and itself a form of abuse to belittle men who have been abused.


I didn't deny it happens to men. I simply don't believe it happens in equal measure as you claim.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
As I said earlier a woman hitting back once a man who's hit her for years is considered as equal. According to the CTS and the same unreliable data child on adult violence is equal to adult on child violence.
And you can post it again later, but it still isn't relevant.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
slonocode wrote:
As I said earlier a woman hitting back once a man who's hit her for years is considered as equal. According to the CTS and the same unreliable data child on adult violence is equal to adult on child violence.
And you can post it again later, but it still isn't relevant.


It's completely relevant and is 100% more relevant than what you sort of maybe recall seeing 20 years ago but don't recall anything or percentages.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
slonocode wrote:
As I said earlier a woman hitting back once a man who's hit her for years is considered as equal. According to the CTS and the same unreliable data child on adult violence is equal to adult on child violence.
And you can post it again later, but it still isn't relevant.


Yeah, I noticed how he keeps harping on "women hitting back" and "child-on-adult" violence.

*does the Spock eyebrow*

Fascinating.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slonocode wrote:
It's completely relevant
No, it really isn't. Defense or retaliation is not the subject here. They are completely unrelated to whether or not men are abused.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pjp wrote:
slonocode wrote:
It's completely relevant
No, it really isn't. Defense or retaliation is not the subject here. They are completely unrelated to whether or not men are abused.


It is relevant because the data was collected by questioning where men would have much less reason to hide the truth. Even in that scenario the data had to be skewed in the fashion i describe to support equal rates of dv.

Oh and pjp sorry but there is no question about whether men are subject to domestic abuse or violence. Everyone in this thread had agreed that it happens. The issue is whether it happens to men at least as much or probably more than to women.

Code:
In a review of the research however Michael Kimmel found that violence is instrumental in maintaining control and that more than 90% of "systematic, persistent, and injurious" violence is perpetrated by men. He points out that most of the empirical studies that Fiebert reviewed used the same empirical measure of family conflict, i.e., the Conflict Tactics Scale (CTS) as the sole measure of domestic violence and that many of the studies noted by Fiebert discussed samples composed entirely of single people younger than 30, not married couples.[132] Kimmel argues that among various other flaws, the CTS is particularly vulnerable to reporting bias because it depends on asking people to accurately remember and report what happened during the past year. However, men tend to under-estimate their use of violence, while women tend to over-estimate their use of violence. Simultaneously men tend to over-estimate their partner's use of violence while women tend to under-estimate their partner's use of violence. Thus, men will likely over-estimate their victimization, while women tend to underestimate theirs.[133]

Similarly, the National Institute of Justice states that studies finding equal or greater frequency of abuse by women against men are based on data compiled through the Conflict Tactics Scale. This survey tool was developed in the 1970s and may not be appropriate for intimate partner violence research because it does not measure control, coercion, or the motives for conflict tactics; it also leaves out sexual assault and violence by ex-spouses or partners and does not determine who initiated the violence. Furthermore, the NIJ contends that national surveys supported by NIJ, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Bureau of Justice Statistics that examine more serious assaults do not support the conclusion of similar rates of male and female spousal assaults. These surveys are conducted within a safety or crime context and clearly find more partner abuse by men against women.



If you simply believe that because men won't or don't report it as much, that it happens to them in equal numbers then just say so. If that is your sole basis than just say so. You've said you have no direct experience with the subject. You've said that you have vague recollections from 20 or more years ago about things you don't remember. What other basis do you have?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have sunk to a new low. Trolling victims of domestics abuse. Think about it. Do you also hang out in 12-step forums and pretend to be one of them, then rip on them when they have poured their hearts out to you and are at your mercy? Isn't that what the 8th circle of hell was for? :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
You have sunk to a new low. Trolling victims of domestics abuse. Think about it. Do you also hang out in 12-step forums and pretend to be one of them, then rip on them when they have poured their hearts out to you and are at your mercy? Isn't that what the 8th circle of hell was for? :lol:



Who's trolling here? You provided a link to a website where the actual study is 404 not found. Anything I find, on my own mind you, that claims equal measure seems to use the flawed CTS data. Certainly audiodef and pjp haven't provided any evidence that it's true. Are you saying that you believe it is equal? If so show me the evidence that led you to that conclusion.

My initial reaction was that I don't believe it's as normal for women on men dv as the other way around. I asked for some proof, some explanation. I didn't receive any proof or explanation. All I received was that somehow I'm a troll for not believing.

I haven't "ripped" audiodef. I haven't "pretended to be one of them".


Let's also be clear about the language. Are abuse and violence equal? Is abuse mental and violence physical? Is a "henpecked" or "pussy whipped" male a victim of domestic violence?
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