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dE_logics
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:39 am    Post subject: Gentoo is going DOWN on servers too. Reply with quote

Apart from popularity in distrowatch -

http://w3techs.com/technologies/history_details/os-linux/all/q

But this maybe because of rising number of servers worldwide, so all in all the usage might be increasing, but % is reducing.

The 2 commercial Linux giants -- Novel, Redhat are also having bad times.
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golagoda
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This just further drives home the point that people are just looking for instant ease of use, I've found myself that Gentoo has actually been the easiest distribution for servers once you're used to portage and all that, but Ubuntu and the likes are only going to get more and more popular at this rate.

More and more tutorials and such on forums, blogs etc are made for Ubuntu / Debian deriatives / Distro's with apt-get so naturally more people are going to use or switch to them.
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jdhore
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

golagoda wrote:
This just further drives home the point that people are just looking for instant ease of use, I've found myself that Gentoo has actually been the easiest distribution for servers once you're used to portage and all that, but Ubuntu and the likes are only going to get more and more popular at this rate.

More and more tutorials and such on forums, blogs etc are made for Ubuntu / Debian deriatives / Distro's with apt-get so naturally more people are going to use or switch to them.


This. Also, people choose Ubuntu because they're more likely to be familiar with it from trying it on their home computer. Also, with Gentoo declining on servers...Gentoo isn't brilliant for companies with MASSIVE amounts of servers (like hundreds) due to the fact that every Gentoo install may be different and you have to do a bit of hackery to make them all the same (like putting /etc/portage/ on a NFS share and mask everything newer than the current version for all installed packages and then change it when necessary.)
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[sarcasm]yes its so hard to edit a few text files and run a few commands, but if you have it in a nice gui it makes all the difference[/sarcasm]
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2011 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdhore wrote:
golagoda wrote:
This just further drives home the point that people are just looking for instant ease of use, I've found myself that Gentoo has actually been the easiest distribution for servers once you're used to portage and all that, but Ubuntu and the likes are only going to get more and more popular at this rate.

More and more tutorials and such on forums, blogs etc are made for Ubuntu / Debian deriatives / Distro's with apt-get so naturally more people are going to use or switch to them.


This. Also, people choose Ubuntu because they're more likely to be familiar with it from trying it on their home computer. Also, with Gentoo declining on servers...Gentoo isn't brilliant for companies with MASSIVE amounts of servers (like hundreds) due to the fact that every Gentoo install may be different and you have to do a bit of hackery to make them all the same (like putting /etc/portage/ on a NFS share and mask everything newer than the current version for all installed packages and then change it when necessary.)


If you had a few hundred servers, you'd use be using BINHOST rather updating them individually, making /etc/portage pretty much irrelevant ;)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

golagoda wrote:
This just further drives home the point that people are just looking for instant ease of use, I've found myself that Gentoo has actually been the easiest distribution for servers once you're used to portage and all that, but Ubuntu and the likes are only going to get more and more popular at this rate.

More and more tutorials and such on forums, blogs etc are made for Ubuntu / Debian deriatives / Distro's with apt-get so naturally more people are going to use or switch to them.


I sort of disagree. Most server (except Microsoft ones maybe) are managed by professions; if that's not so, it will be the case in the future IMO.

Professionals don't see ease of use -- they see the maintenance, performance and security; in server environments, maintaining Gentoo is really not hard and we all know Gentoo is best at performance and security (hardened).

Actually, if ease of use was the case, only MS would have survived.

Also I think instead of opting for 100 servers, I'd opt for a single mainframe.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Etal wrote:
jdhore wrote:
golagoda wrote:
This just further drives home the point that people are just looking for instant ease of use, I've found myself that Gentoo has actually been the easiest distribution for servers once you're used to portage and all that, but Ubuntu and the likes are only going to get more and more popular at this rate.

More and more tutorials and such on forums, blogs etc are made for Ubuntu / Debian deriatives / Distro's with apt-get so naturally more people are going to use or switch to them.


This. Also, people choose Ubuntu because they're more likely to be familiar with it from trying it on their home computer. Also, with Gentoo declining on servers...Gentoo isn't brilliant for companies with MASSIVE amounts of servers (like hundreds) due to the fact that every Gentoo install may be different and you have to do a bit of hackery to make them all the same (like putting /etc/portage/ on a NFS share and mask everything newer than the current version for all installed packages and then change it when necessary.)


If you had a few hundred servers, you'd use be using BINHOST rather updating them individually, making /etc/portage pretty much irrelevant ;)


No one wants to waste bandwidth in updates; this's a unique feature of Gentoo which makes updates a lot easier.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gentoo is horrible for servers, I cannot tell my customers to take down 24 servers for couple of hours so that gentoo can compile updates, when other distros can do it within 20 minutes time-frame or less. Why bother?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Gentoo is horrible for servers, I cannot tell my customers to take down 24 servers for couple of hours so that gentoo can compile updates, when other distros can do it within 20 minutes time-frame or less. Why bother?


24 hours? I don't think so dude. What kind of server are you talking about?

Also it's a good idea to make backup of the rootfs and compile the updates in a chroot env (or a different system), and building binary packages on the way; that way you can even test the updated installation.

Also, servers don't require much updates, I just keep a check on the security vulnerabilities, and update the corresponding packages selectively.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Gentoo is horrible for servers, I cannot tell my customers to take down 24 servers for couple of hours so that gentoo can compile updates, when other distros can do it within 20 minutes time-frame or less. Why bother?


You can't take down 24 severs for 20 minutes either. So no difference here.

What speaks against Gentoo is that it's more difficult to find qualified employees and there is no official support from the distro itself.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would never really understand why people use ubuntu as server instead of debian.
It appears strange.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Gentoo is horrible for servers, I cannot tell my customers to take down 24 servers for couple of hours so that gentoo can compile updates, when other distros can do it within 20 minutes time-frame or less. Why bother?


ever made a dist-upgrade in debian/ubuntu?


Last edited by dirkfanick on Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dirkfanick wrote:
sera wrote:
Gentoo is horrible for servers, I cannot tell my customers to take down 24 servers for couple of hours so that gentoo can compile updates, when other distros can do it within 20 minutes time-frame or less. Why bother?


ever made a dist-upgrade in debian/ubuntu?


No, not needed.

deb-src http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main
deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free

Similarly -

deb http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ stable main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.au.debian.org/debian/ stable main contrib non-free
deb http://ftp.be.debian.org/debian/ stable main contrib non-free

This's on Debian only...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Prenj wrote:
Gentoo is horrible for servers, I cannot tell my customers to take down 24 servers for couple of hours so that gentoo can compile updates, when other distros can do it within 20 minutes time-frame or less. Why bother?


See dE-logics' remark on BINHOST.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2011 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I repeat myself, but the beautifull abuot gentoo is that you can mix stable with bleeding-edge software easely.

debian is linked statically and I remember bad dependency-problems about installing newest software.

However, I've heard debian is a bit more stable and prooven as that. Backports may be offered.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philosophy of a company to choose an operating system: "Who can we sue/blame if things break?"
As long as there's someone supporting the distro and takes the blame for breakage, they take anything.

Here I'm using gentoo and CentOS depending on if we need special binary packages that are only certified to run on some RPM distros. Why? Well... Just try to get eToken devices running with the official middleware from trustware on 64bit...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ToeiRei wrote:
"Who can we sue/blame if things break?"


Jesus?

Taliban?

Buddha?

The rabbi?

Your mother? Your Father?

Yourself?

Dirk Fanick!


Last edited by dirkfanick on Wed Dec 21, 2011 1:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

another sidenote: you can always 'emerge -B $package' to prepare a package (building) and 'emerge -K $package' later.

But I still don't get where the actual downtime is.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why not just make a cluster if uptimes are that important?

~6 hours ago, even Gentoo server were down (maintenance?)
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2011 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be considered a hobby user, my profession as a carpenter does not require computer skills.
My first distro was sabayon and I quickly started using gentoo.

I see no reason for gentoo to be anywhere on distrowatch, any linux cd will work.

I have installed debian a few times, simply makes no sense to me .... gentoo is so much easier to accomplish what you want.
Every time I learn how to do something on debian, leaves me scratching my head .... seems so backwards. Compile a kernel for example.
Gentoo just seems to make sense to me.

I have little experience with servers, but would be gentoo all the way for me.
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