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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdmulloy wrote:
This shit is one of the reasons I don't use Gentoo anymore. I use OpenSUSE so none of this is MY problem. It takes about an hour to install the OS and everything "Just Works"(TM).

I don't want it to "just work". I want to be the one who made it work, understand exactly why and how it works, and make it work exactly the way I want it to. That's why I use Gentoo.

If you want it to "just work", you should use a Macintosh. :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I want to be the one who made it work

Basically it's the modern version of "I MADE FIRE!!"
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2011 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone now wonders why the BSDs are reluctant to port anything from Linux? Imagine you spend a month porting devicekit, and then the new kid on the block appears and you have to start again. FreeBSD/NetBSD is sticking to HAL for the time being. DragonFly will probably develop something of their own, they already have udev comaptbility.
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ppurka
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Hey, what do you know, it's a FreeDesktop.org project!
It's more like experiement-with-Fedora-but-freedesktop-for-the-rest project. It has been like that for the past few years.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Fedora actually using this thing?
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Is Fedora actually using this thing?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd#Adoption

It's in an overlay, if you want to try it. But you might better study for your last round of exams.
http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/Systemd
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wswartzendruber wrote:
Hey, what do you know, it's a FreeDesktop.org project!
And that's the problem! All they seem to care about is building layer on layer, building stuff for GNOME/KDE/XFCE, document nothing and let others stand in the rain.

F.e. all that XDG-stuff is driving me crazy. I'm used to things like 'export BROWSER=bla EDITOR=foo' and this worked for ages, but now, every application thinks it's making my life easier relying on XDG. Well, it's not, since now I have to digg through files littered across my ~/, googling for documentation since FreeDesktop has none, finding mimetypes, etc.

Now developers from all over the place (mostly WMs like awesome, fvwm, ...) are writing little tools to help their users getting the stuff back to work which FreeDesktop fucked up.
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And putting shit into XML that used to be freeform text files you could view on one screen at a glance.

At least they didn't build systemd in C# or something.
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha, XML, don't get me started. A few days ago, I laughed my ass off when I saw how to setup keyboard shortcuts in openbox
Code:
<keybind key="A-F2">
    <action name="Execute">
      <startupnotify>
        <enabled>true</enabled>
        <name>Run Program</name>
      </startupnotify>
      <command>gmrun</command>
    </action>
  </keybind>
For my (currently) 89 shortcuts, that would be 801 (!!!) lines just for shortcuts - yeah, yeah, XML on single line, who can read that? - that would be longer then my fvwm-setup...
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sts
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy christ, 89 shortcuts? I don't even use 89 programs.

XML is shitty but it isn't meant to be edited by hand.
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sts wrote:
Holy christ, 89 shortcuts? I don't even use 89 programs.
I don't think that are many, matter of fact, I used to have way more.

They build up pretty fast, but if you arrange them in a fashion logical to you, they're imho quite easy to remember.

F.e.:
- resize and move a window, 8 directions each +2 for center/original size -> 18
- go to desktop/move window to desktop 1-9 -> 18
- minimize, maximise, toggle shading, close, kill -> 5
- volume up/down,max/mute -> 4
- play/pause/stop/next/prev/beginning/, repeat one/all, shuffle -> 9
- screenshot whole/window/area -> 3
- brightness for display/keyboard up/down, eject drive, sleep/hibernate -> 7

That are already 64 without a single app or function being launched. Others might do all that via mousing around, switching apps or clicking widgets of some sort, but that's just not for me.

Quote:
XML is shitty but it isn't meant to be edited by hand.
Sure, but then again, it needs an extra library which at least the devs of the applications need to understand - or they again use some layer to make it easier.

From the openbox example above, I don't really see how parsing this is in any way easier to write then parsing f.e. fvwm's keyboard definitions, which is just
Code:
KEY $key context modifier action
, single line space seperated values.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jho wrote:
XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve your problem, you're not using enough of it.

:lol:

Kind of like alcohol.
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Ant P.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh, I just ignore Openbox's config files and use xbindkeys. Would be nice if all the keys on my keyboard actually worked in X...
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ant P. wrote:
Eh, I just ignore Openbox's config files and use xbindkeys. Would be nice if all the keys on my keyboard actually worked in X...
Try the following, always worked for my special keys/wheels: http://www.bedroomlan.org/projects/evrouter
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, we all need one big daemon like systemd for everything like:
  • Init replacement
  • Session management
  • Hardware management
  • Printing
  • Typesetting
  • Compiling
  • Feeding the cat, doing the dishes...


Why don't we just put the whole functionality of a usual desktop system into systemd? Hell, we are using a monolithic kernel (no trolling against Linux intended, at least it is a working piece of software), next step would be a monolithic OS: Everything in one single executable and one single process!

[/irony]

Funny enough, one reason why HAL is deprecated is that it is one big monolithic program doing several things (like power management, device enumeration, mounting external disks) at once, instead of "doing one thing and doing it right", as the Unix philosophy states. Now the same with systemd...
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts exactly. Also, I get the impression it's a kludgy hack-job. Wait, I mean "rapid application development", which is fine if you are slapping an interface of some website, but it seems to be that an init system should be properly engineered.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2011 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is precisely the reason I switched to Windows 7.

Yeah, yeah, I know all the arguments against, but with the proper precautions, and third party software, I feel secure enough with Windows.
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
This is precisely the reason I switched to Windows 7.

Yeah, yeah, I know all the arguments against, but with the proper precautions, and third party software, I feel secure enough with Windows.

Sorry, but this has to be sigged. :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Old School wrote:
This is precisely the reason I switched to Windows 7.

Yeah, yeah, I know all the arguments against, but with the proper precautions, and third party software, I feel secure enough with Windows.

Sorry, but this has to be sigged. :lol:

You are behaving like a liberal, by only quoting part of the sentence. :twisted:
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Bones McCracker
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Old School wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Old School wrote:
This is precisely the reason I switched to Windows 7.

Yeah, yeah, I know all the arguments against, but with the proper precautions, and third party software, I feel secure enough with Windows.

Sorry, but this has to be sigged. :lol:

You are behaving like a liberal, by only quoting part of the sentence. :twisted:

Oh. I thought that was the normal sigging process.
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
Oh. I thought that was the normal sigging process.

Exactly
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr.Willy wrote:
BoneKracker wrote:
Oh. I thought that was the normal sigging process.

Exactly

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BoneKracker wrote:
I don't want it to "just work". I want to be the one who made it work, understand exactly why and how it works, and make it work exactly the way I want it to. That's why I use Gentoo.

If you want it to "just work", you should use a Macintosh. :lol:

I suppose you n00bs are still using X? :P

Real men stare real hard at the hard drive to reflect cosmic rays and write out the bits for their own kernel and userland before booting for the first time into a tty. ;)
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PostPosted: Fri May 06, 2011 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Real men stare real hard at the hard drive to reflect cosmic rays and write out the bits for their own kernel and userland before booting for the first time into a tty. ;)
Real men -> CM-Butterfly :twisted:
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