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erm67
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 Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:20 pm Post subject: House of the Gladiators collapses in Pompeii |
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Yeah, keep cutting useless expenses .......
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11704720
| Quote: | A house in the ancient Roman city of Pompeii has collapsed, raising concerns about whether Italy is spending enough to preserve its archaeological heritage.
The House of the Gladiators was found in ruins when curators came to open the site to visitors early on Saturday.
Partially rebuilt after it sustained damage during World World II, it had not been thought at risk of collapse.
Culture Minister Sandro Bondi said some of the frescos on the house's lower walls might have survived.
Antonio Varone, director of excavations at the site, said officials were "trying to preserve the last fragments".
The house, which is not normally open to the public but can be viewed from the outside, was cordoned off.
There was speculation that recent heavy rains might have made the structure unstable.
The house, known as the Schola Armaturarum, was used by gladiators for training before fights in the nearby amphitheatre.
Pompeii was destroyed in AD79 when a volcanic eruption from nearby Mount Vesuvius buried the city in ash. It was not uncovered until the 18th Century. |
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pjp
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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As long as tourism covers the cost of upkeep, I'd be OK with it.
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Old School
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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Were any gladiators injured?
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Dr.Willy
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| Old School wrote: | | Were any gladiators injured? |
They found several corpses I heard. |
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agrippa_cash
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:41 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like this could be worse than that Cessna crash in the Polish graveyard.
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Old School
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 1:47 am Post subject: |
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| agrippa_cash wrote: | | Sounds like this could be worse than that Cessna crash in the Polish graveyard. |
Was anyone in the ground injured?
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 3:29 am Post subject: |
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Pompei was doing just fine until they went and dug it up.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:29 am Post subject: |
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I was in Pompeii less than two weeks ago. Awesome site. Would've even checked out Herculaneum and other nearby sites if I had more than a day.
This is a shame. They ought to do more to preserve these relics of actual civilization instead of preserving the three billion churches all over Italy.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | I was in Pompeii less than two weeks ago. Awesome site. Would've even checked out Herculaneum and other nearby sites if I had more than a day.
This is a shame. They ought to do more to preserve these relics of actual civilization instead of preserving the three billion churches all over Italy. |
Having seen it, you might enjoy The Last Days of Pompei.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 5:54 am Post subject: |
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I doubt I would: | Wikipedia wrote: | | The novel uses its characters to contrast the decadent culture of first-century Rome.......Olinthus is the chief representative of the nascent Christian religion, which is presented favorably but not uncritically. |
This is a common theme in Western literature. Ancient Rome = Sodom and Gommorah, the Whore of Babylon (pointing out the uneducated Christians' woeful knowledge of geography, a trend which would continue to the present day). And Christianity is what brings civilization. This nonsense is also present in the stories of two video games I've played recently. If anything, the "nascent Christian religion" was like the fucking Taliban.
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notageek
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Dr.Willy wrote: | | Old School wrote: | | Were any gladiators injured? |
They found several corpses I heard. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: |
I doubt I would: | Wikipedia wrote: | | The novel uses its characters to contrast the decadent culture of first-century Rome.......Olinthus is the chief representative of the nascent Christian religion, which is presented favorably but not uncritically. |
This is a common theme in Western literature. Ancient Rome = Sodom and Gommorah, the Whore of Babylon (pointing out the uneducated Christians' woeful knowledge of geography, a trend which would continue to the present day). And Christianity is what brings civilization. This nonsense is also present in the stories of two video games I've played recently. If anything, the "nascent Christian religion" was like the fucking Taliban. |
It was written in 1839, what do you expect? Your loss.
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erm67
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | As long as tourism covers the cost of upkeep, I'd be OK with it. |
Unlikely, maybe tourism can cover some costs but history is very expensive business ...
| runningwithscissors wrote: |
This is a shame. They ought to do more to preserve these relics of actual civilization instead of preserving the three billion churches all over Italy. |
Churches belong to the church and they care for them, unless there are masterpieces inside the state doesn't pay for the upkeep of churches.
It was 400dc, beside geography also history knowledge is necessary to interpret historical facts ... Christianity was already state religion, not a nascent Christian religion ........ after centuries of persecutions against Christians, paganism had been made illegal a few years before the facts. Some episodes like that might have happened but never a real persecution.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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The nascent Christian religion wasn't like the Taliban. They didn't get like that until about a thousand years later.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | ........ after centuries of persecutions against Christians |
Myth. There were plenty of religions practiced in Rome. Both in the time of the republic as well as the empire. Ruins of temples to non-Roman gods are found in a lot of ancient Roman cities. No reason why Christians would be singled out for "persecution". They were fed to the lions not because they were Christians, but because they did not accept the deification of the Emperor ("our Lord is the only Lord", intolerant even back then) and that was considered seditious.
| erm67 wrote: | | Some episodes like that might have happened but never a real persecution. |
There is a huge amount of documented evidence of violent campaigns to root out "heresy" both against paganism and other Christian sects. So much so that no trace remains of any pre-Christian cultures in Europe. Christian persecution continued for well over 1500 years.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | The nascent Christian religion wasn't like the Taliban. They didn't get like that until about a thousand years later. |
In the first 150 years or so (3rd century to mid 4th century) it may not have been like the Taliban, but that is only because they had no power or backing of any sort. The moment they did, they started to actively kill everybody who wouldn't convert. So, not 1000 years later, but something like 150 years later. Which for a 2000 year old religion can be considered a "nascent" period. Therefore, early Christianity = Taliban.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | | ........ after centuries of persecutions against Christians |
Myth. There were plenty of religions practiced in Rome. Both in the time of the republic as well as the empire. Ruins of temples to non-Roman gods are found in a lot of ancient Roman cities. No reason why Christians would be singled out for "persecution". They were fed to the lions not because they were Christians, but because they did not accept the deification of the Emperor ("our Lord is the only Lord", intolerant even back then) and that was considered seditious. |
How does that make it a myth? In fact, the Christians were persecuted by the Romans. The Romans weren't very serious about religion, which to them was something akin to a sport or a good-luck charm. They prayed to their Gods of choice (and they had a constantly changing number to choose from), but unlike the Jews and Christians, they were not at all "other-wordly", monotheistic, or religiously intolerant. The Christians were tolerated at first, but they didn't integrate well into Roman culture. Once it became clear that their religion forbade them to worship the Emperor as a diety, and their increasing numbers started to make them a threat, they were indeed persecuted.
| runningwithscissors wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | | Some episodes like that might have happened but never a real persecution. |
There is a huge amount of documented evidence of violent campaigns to root out "heresy" both against paganism and other Christian sects. So much so that no trace remains of any pre-Christian cultures in Europe. Christian persecution continued for well over 1500 years. |
Can't argue with that. However, most of the heavy lifting of eradicating the pagan religions of tribal Europe had already been carried out by the Romans. Then, about 400 years after Christ, the whole Roman Empire was converted to Christianity en masse, and heresy became illegal. While regional prelates had to continuously maintain control of their flocks, it wasn't all that hard, with the power of damning someone to an eternity in Hell via Excommunication. Their biggest challenges were political and economic, as they fought to maintain the dual power structure of "Church and Kings" and amass wealth. But they got further and further afield of the original religion, and eventually there was a backlash, with people like John Wycliff and Martin Luther coming along.
Other than schisms and internal conflict, the only major campaigns of persecution carried out by Christians were against their pagan neighbors (e.g. Slavs), immigrants (e.g., Jews) and invaders (e.g. Muslims). The suppression or absorption of the pagans of Europe had already been more or less completed by Rome. In Byzantium, religious tolerance continued (unlike in Europe), but the Christians were soon overcome by Muslims.
| runningwithscissors wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | The nascent Christian religion wasn't like the Taliban. They didn't get like that until about a thousand years later. |
In the first 150 years or so (3rd century to mid 4th century) it may not have been like the Taliban, but that is only because they had no power or backing of any sort. The moment they did, they started to actively kill everybody who wouldn't convert. So, not 1000 years later, but something like 150 years later. Which for a 2000 year old religion can be considered a "nascent" period. Therefore, early Christianity = Taliban. |
You had incorrectly attributed that quote to erm67.
While the Christians did achieve power with the conversion of Constantine (who issued the Edict of Milan in 313 C.E.), they were not universally powerful. Prior to that time, Christianity existed in various pockets around the Roman Empire. Then there was an early Schism, resulting in the Church of the East (followers of Nestor) which were basically the non-European Christians (Turkey on down). From that time up to about 600 C.E., Christianity expanded to compass all of the Roman Empire and some areas beyond, and was tolerated within the Persian Empire. But after 600 C.E., with the rise of Islam, Christians in the Levant and throughout the Middle East, Egypt, Mediterranean Africa, and Spain, were destroyed, converted, or subjugated by Muslims -- something that would not have been possible had they been the "Taliban" you describe.
Also, I'm not aware of any campaigns of religious violence by any Christians prior to the invasion of Europe by the Islamic Caliphates.
Based on what you're saying, I would have to assume you are talking about that period between Christ and Constantine. I know the Christians in the Roman Empire met in secret and so on, but I don't know them to have been anything but pacifists, generally. Maybe you can point me to what exactly you are thinking of when you refer to them as "Taliban" (I'm not being facetious; I'm just not aware of it). Where was this activity occurring, around 150 C.E., where they were "killing everybody who wouldn't convert"?
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:35 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | runningwithscissors wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | | ........ after centuries of persecutions against Christians |
Myth. There were plenty of religions practiced in Rome. Both in the time of the republic as well as the empire. Ruins of temples to non-Roman gods are found in a lot of ancient Roman cities. No reason why Christians would be singled out for "persecution". They were fed to the lions not because they were Christians, but because they did not accept the deification of the Emperor ("our Lord is the only Lord", intolerant even back then) and that was considered seditious. |
How does that make it a myth? In fact, the Christians were persecuted by the Romans. The Romans weren't very serious about religion, which to them was something akin to a sport or a good-luck charm. They prayed to their Gods of choice (and they had a constantly changing number to choose from), but unlike the Jews and Christians, they were not at all "other-wordly", monotheistic, or religiously intolerant. The Christians were tolerated at first, but they didn't integrate well into Roman culture. Once it became clear that their religion forbade them to worship the Emperor as a diety, and their increasing numbers started to make them a threat, they were indeed persecuted. |
It is a myth that Christians were persecuted because they were Christians. Which is what a lot of people think. The empire would have left them alone had they acknowledged the divinity of the Emperor. Which shouldn't have been a problem (the Romans probably thought so too) because they violated their own "one god" doctrine by deifying Jesus. To anyone whose brains haven't been addled by Christian theology, that is two gods! Not to mention there were other, relatively (term used loosely) saner Christian sects (Gnostics, Arians, Marcions, etc.) who didn't pretend to be monotheistic. In light of this, the stupidity of the pretend-monotheists is so stark that throwing them to the lions is doing the world a favour.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | runningwithscissors wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | | Some episodes like that might have happened but never a real persecution. |
There is a huge amount of documented evidence of violent campaigns to root out "heresy" both against paganism and other Christian sects. So much so that no trace remains of any pre-Christian cultures in Europe. Christian persecution continued for well over 1500 years. |
Can't argue with that. However, most of the heavy lifting of eradicating the pagan religions of tribal Europe had already been carried out by the Romans. |
No. The Romans didn't care about supplanting the local gods. Their interest was money. The Greek and Egyptian religions were widely practiced in their traditional cultures even when they were under Roman control. And Jesus (assuming he existed) was whacked because he was making trouble at a Jewish festival.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | Then, about 400 years after Christ, the whole Roman Empire was converted to Christianity en masse, and heresy became illegal. While regional prelates had to continuously maintain control of their flocks, it wasn't all that hard, with the power of damning someone to an eternity in Hell via Excommunication. Their biggest challenges were political and economic, as they fought to maintain the dual power structure of "Church and Kings" and amass wealth. But they got further and further afield of the original religion, and eventually there was a backlash, with people like John Wycliff and Martin Luther coming along. |
The major Christian sects, Catholicism and Orthodox initially, and Protestantism after that functioned very well under kings. Christianity is tailor-made for autocracy. "Church and Kings" went hand-in-hand. They still do in the case of current European monarchies. Protestants killed their fair share of heretics. Whatever reform they brought certainly didn't alleviate the brutality within the religion.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | Other than schisms and internal conflict, the only major campaigns of persecution carried out by Christians were against their pagan neighbors (e.g. Slavs), immigrants (e.g., Jews) and invaders (e.g. Muslims). The suppression or absorption of the pagans of Europe had already been more or less completed by Rome. In Byzantium, religious tolerance continued (unlike in Europe), but the Christians were soon overcome by Muslims. |
Orthodox Christianity was every bit as intolerant as Catholicism. No sign of pre-Christian culture in the erstwhile territories of Byzantium either. And there were plenty of campaigns. Against Germanic tribes, Goths, etc.
I'd say even the Jews in Judaea were overcome by Muslims. Hence why most Jews today are white and from Europe. Actual Middle Eastern jews don't seem as common.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | While the Christians did achieve power with the conversion of Constantine (who issued the Edict of Milan in 313 C.E.), they were not universally powerful. |
They were powerful enough to convert, often forcibly, in the areas within the Roman Empire.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | Prior to that time, Christianity existed in various pockets around the Roman Empire. Then there was an early Schism, resulting in the Church of the East (followers of Nestor) which were basically the non-European Christians (Turkey on down). From that time up to about 600 C.E., Christianity expanded to compass all of the Roman Empire and some areas beyond, and was tolerated within the Persian Empire. |
If they had managed to convert the Persian emperor, Zoroastrianism would've been wiped out by Christianity before Islam had a chance. And there are still a few communities of Zoroastrians in Iran. There are no pagans in Europe. Just neo-pagans.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | But after 600 C.E., with the rise of Islam, Christians in the Levant and throughout the Middle East, Egypt, Mediterranean Africa, and Spain, were destroyed, converted, or subjugated by Muslims -- something that would not have been possible had they been the "Taliban" you describe. |
And the Muslims were beaten back out of Spain. And all Muslim Eurotards were again, given the choice to convert to Christianity or die. The Christians spoke to the Muslims in the language they understood. That of primitive brutality. That's why there are no Muslim communities in Spain from the time of the Muslim conquest. And there'd be no Muslims in Palestine either if the crusaders had succeeded in winning back the "holy lands".
| BoneKracker wrote: | | Also, I'm not aware of any campaigns of religious violence by any Christians prior to the invasion of Europe by the Islamic Caliphates. |
I think Christian kings outlawing other religions and making "heresy" punishable by death, and actually killing heretics accordingly, counts as "religious violence".
| BoneKracker wrote: | | Based on what you're saying, I would have to assume you are talking about that period between Christ and Constantine. I know the Christians in the Roman Empire met in secret and so on, but I don't know them to have been anything but pacifists, generally. Maybe you can point me to what exactly you are thinking of when you refer to them as "Taliban" (I'm not being facetious; I'm just not aware of it). Where was this activity occurring, around 150 C.E., where they were "killing everybody who wouldn't convert"? |
I don't buy the "Jesus died, Christianity began" idea. I think it arose sometime in the mid 2nd century. So 150 years from then on would be roughly around the time of Constantine. In those 150 years they were relatively peaceful (and some of them weren't even crazy! to think that they were monotheists). Once it became the state religion, the saner sects (moderates) were killed for heresy by the fanatics (Taliban). Dark Age Europe was like Afghanistan was with the Taliban in power.
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, now I understand the time-frame you are talking about. It's true that Constantine did declare heresy a capital offense. I don't see a lot of evidence that it was necessary to widely carry out that sentence, though. People just went underground and eventually converted.
I disagree with your statement that Rome didn't care about supplanting the local gods. They did exactly that. They did it by erecting baths, temples, and other infrastructure adorned with Roman gods that were similar to the local gods. People were allowed to assume, for a time, that the idols represented their pagan gods (just with a different name). Over time, people converted willingly to worship of the Roman gods, not because they were forced to, but because it was necessary to integrate into the culture of the upper classes and be economically successful. Paganism was still going on among the provincial plebians, but as long as it was done quietly, it was inconsequential and ignored.
Eventually, when Rome itself became Christian, prelates were gradually appointed to positions of tangible power throughout the empire (positions of economic and social power equivalent to that of the local provincial rulers and local nobility). It was from those positions of power that Christianity was forced (in a relatively orderly and peaceful process) upon the provincial populations.
Christians did not, like the Taliban, engage in a revolutionary war, marching across the provinces in large-scale warfare against the forces of the ruling kings, seizing terrain, unseating the established government, putting to death all who would not submit, and then enforcing radical cultural edicts with vigilante bands inflicting torture, maiming, and death.
That sort of thing didn't happen until much later, after the invasion of Europe by the Caliphates, with the crusades, and still later with the inquisitions and witch-hunts.
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erm67
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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Christians were Romans, Romans were Christians
It is the same people, just read about the costumes of the Romans in 700BC you will find them strikingly similar to Christianity, beside slavery ... common at the time btw. You cannot talk of Christians and Romans as two separate entities because they were the same people ...
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | Christians were Romans, Romans were Christians
It is the same people, just read about the costumes of the Romans in 700BC you will find them strikingly similar to Christianity, beside slavery ... common at the time btw. You cannot talk of Christians and Romans as two separate entities because they were the same people ... |
It's not quite that simple. Early in the history of Christianity (for example, during the first three centuries), most Romans were not Christians.
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Okay, now I understand the time-frame you are talking about. It's true that Constantine did declare heresy a capital offense. I don't see a lot of evidence that it was necessary to widely carry out that sentence, though. People just went underground and eventually converted. |
I think that the "Europe converted peacefully to Christianity" theory is revisionist whitewashing of the history of Christianity. That the death sentence for heresy wasn't seriously carried out is wishful thinking. The rapid Christianization after it became the state religion and the disappearance of the less-crazy competing sects belies that. And there are plenty of accounts of executions for heresy and active destruction of non-Christian places of worship and book burnings before the rise of Islam. Not to mention the mob-lynching and other accounts of mob violence to quell heresy around the same time period.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | Christians did not, like the Taliban, engage in a revolutionary war, marching across the provinces in large-scale warfare against the forces of the ruling kings, seizing terrain, unseating the established government, putting to death all who would not submit, and then enforcing radical cultural edicts with vigilante bands inflicting torture, maiming, and death. |
No revolutionary warfare, yes. But they did put to death those who wouldn't submit and yes there were vigilante bands as pointed out in the lynching account I mentioned before. There are other accounts of mob violence by Christians angered by heresy as well. So with respect to the religious fanaticism, the dedication to ignorance, and the desire to kill as heretics anyone who did not agree with them a comparison with the Taliban can be drawn.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | I disagree with your statement that Rome didn't care about supplanting the local gods. They did exactly that. They did it by erecting baths, temples, and other infrastructure.... |
What have the Romans ever done for us? 
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erm67
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | Christians were Romans, Romans were Christians
It is the same people, just read about the costumes of the Romans in 700BC you will find them strikingly similar to Christianity, beside slavery ... common at the time btw. You cannot talk of Christians and Romans as two separate entities because they were the same people ... |
It's not quite that simple. Early in the history of Christianity (for example, during the first three centuries), most Romans were not Christians. |
Yes Romans are older than christians, they did not change too much when they become Christians, most of the costumes and values of the ancient romans are the same as Christian ones. It is because Christianity evolved from the Roman culture and religion. Most people had lost faith in the old gods, I mean they recommended a sacrifice to the god of Agriculture to obtain a good crop, but it didn't worked so most were disillusioned with the old gods.
Romans were not an ethnicity, the founders were outcast, escaped criminals, political opponents of various ethnic groups in Italy, they were quite revolutionary for the time.
Take for example marriage rules: in Greece at the time brides could be sold, and forced marriage was the rule. From the beginning in Rome instead a marriage could only take place 'cum affectione' only if the couple loved each other, the legal age to marry was as soon as they caould procreate, i.e. first menstrual cycle for the girl and first hard on for the boy .... Christianity did not change that too much, just fixed at age 12 for the girl and 14 for the boy. The same goes for a lot of habits associated with Christianity, they came in truth from the romans.
it is Roman Catholic Church not only because it is based in Rome ....
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | I disagree with your statement that Rome didn't care about supplanting the local gods. They did exactly that. They did it by erecting baths, temples, and other infrastructure.... |
What have the Romans ever done for us? |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:36 am Post subject: |
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| erm67 wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | erm67 wrote: | Christians were Romans, Romans were Christians
It is the same people, just read about the costumes of the Romans in 700BC you will find them strikingly similar to Christianity, beside slavery ... common at the time btw. You cannot talk of Christians and Romans as two separate entities because they were the same people ... |
It's not quite that simple. Early in the history of Christianity (for example, during the first three centuries), most Romans were not Christians. |
Yes Romans are older than christians, they did not change too much when they become Christians, most of the costumes and values of the ancient romans are the same as Christian ones. It is because Christianity evolved from the Roman culture and religion. Most people had lost faith in the old gods, I mean they recommended a sacrifice to the god of Agriculture to obtain a good crop, but it didn't worked so most were disillusioned with the old gods.
Romans were not an ethnicity, the founders were outcast, escaped criminals, political opponents of various ethnic groups in Italy, they were quite revolutionary for the time.
Take for example marriage rules: in Greece at the time brides could be sold, and forced marriage was the rule. From the beginning in Rome instead a marriage could only take place 'cum affectione' only if the couple loved each other, the legal age to marry was as soon as they caould procreate, i.e. first menstrual cycle for the girl and first hard on for the boy .... Christianity did not change that too much, just fixed at age 12 for the girl and 14 for the boy. The same goes for a lot of habits associated with Christianity, they came in truth from the romans.
it is Roman Catholic Church not only because it is based in Rome .... |
What you say is true, but Christianity was also deeply rooted in Hebrew culture and Judaic religion, and the influence of Rome was less on the churches of the East (although the did not thrive like the Catholic Church and its Protestant spawn, or were eradicated or suppressed where they did, by Islam and Communism).
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:41 am Post subject: |
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