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Would you support a Gentoo move to clang/LLVM
Yes
79%
 79%  [ 155 ]
No
20%
 20%  [ 40 ]
Total Votes : 195

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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

krinn wrote:
cokehabit wrote:
Strong?

Sorry, i was speaking about his mind or sens of affairs... not about how big or how much money apple company might have.
Maybe a misuse of the word, in french strong could be use that way. was trying to avoid saying he's a genius twice time in a row :D
putane, il est pas un genius, il est n'importe quoi
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1clue
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hats off to avx, I thought this would be a huge project to even get as far as has been done.

I have a hate/love/hate relationship with Steve Jobs and Apple as a whole.

I hate their marketing model, but their products are awesome. I have an iPhone and a MacBook Pro. The fact that Steve Jobs insists on controlling what I can put on the iPhone will probably cause me to switch to something else when my contract runs out, when it would otherwise be hands down the best thing out there. The Mac is a developer box for work. I use Linux at home and am happy with it.

However, over the years Apple (mostly Steve) has innovated again and again and again, coming up with a newer way to engineer things so they are simpler and more intuitive to use. Not saying that every innovation belongs to Apple or Steve, only that what they come out with, the combined innovations bundled as a product, is by far the best user interface available at any price. The fonts are ALWAYS the best out there. The UI as a whole is ALWAYS outstandingly functional and aesthetic at the same time. So they took that and stuck Unix under it, why should we complain? The backend has always been their shortcoming and they fixed it.

I go through this cycle: I look at an Apple product. I buy the product because it's really cool. I use it, and then decide I want to expand it either with hardware or software or both. I find out that Apple does not want me to do what I want to do. I swear a lot and bitch at everybody. When it comes time to replace hardware, I get something non-Apple and throw Linux on it.

Right now, oddly enough, I have brand new hardware with Linux, Mac OS and Microsoft operating systems on it. It will be interesting to see which gets old first. Well, of the non-Microsoft versions. The Windows 7 laptop I loaned out to a friend since I never use it.

Why is it that Apple's sort of innovation seems to be locked into one company? A big chunk of the OS community seems intent on copying commercial software feature for feature and releasing it as OS. Why not come up with your own design? Why does Evolution have to look so much like Outlook? Outlook sucks. Word sucks. Word has features stacked on features, but that doesn't make it easy to use or allow you to make your documentation any faster, so why does OOo emulate it? Pages, the word processor on the Mac, also sucks but for different reasons. They have oversimplified everything to the point that you can't do half the stuff you want to.

FWIW, Apple bought Next, which sort of migrated in when Jobs got back with Apple. Next had a valid commercial license for BSD. Mac OS X is not UN*X, it's Unix. A lot of it was replaced by OS software, but the BSD license is significantly different than GPL.

Another notable commercial computer operating system vendor based near Seattle used the BSD networking stack on their for-pay OS, so I'm guessing that about 98% of all computers out there which have commercially purchased operating systems use the BSD networking stack. Nobody seems to be complaining about that.

So much for diversity, huh?

IMO, an entirely free operating system bundled with entirely free software makes about as much sense as an entirely commercial system that blocks out any free software. Neither are all that great. Sometimes OS communities come up with the best thing anyone has ever seen, and that's wonderful. However there are ways that OS software sucks harder than a black hole, and commercial software is right there to fill the void. In the end, end users want a functional system that gets the job done more effectively than any other way. Personally I will pay what it takes, but I want bang for my buck.

Well, it's late and I need a nap, and I see I've been blabbering for awhile. You all have a good night.
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Hats off to avx, I thought this would be a huge project to even get as far as has been done.
Thanks :oops:

Minor backdraw, I think I need more fans in my system, when I woke up the system was off, so I'm now only @~2200 packages merged - but, it's running again, though a little throttled to be on the safe side.

Quote:
In the end, end users want a functional system that gets the job done more effectively than any other way. Personally I will pay what it takes, but I want bang for my buck.
Excactly my p.o.v. Of course, always "free as in beer" would be nice, but if I need to pay to get the most out of my time and therefor money again, well, it's ok.

Edit, seems the shutdown has hurt the filesystems on the vm, let's hope a simple fsck is enough. Edit3, damn, --rebuild-tree is needed, fingers crossed.

Edit2, if someone got a little room to spare on a server, it would be nice to have a wiki or something else allowing for better co-working. I currently only got some normal webspace :/
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
Quote:
Hats off to avx, I thought this would be a huge project to even get as far as has been done.
Thanks :oops:

Minor backdraw, I think I need more fans in my system, when I woke up the system was off, so I'm now only @~2200 packages merged - but, it's running again, though a little throttled to be on the safe side.

Quote:
In the end, end users want a functional system that gets the job done more effectively than any other way. Personally I will pay what it takes, but I want bang for my buck.
Excactly my p.o.v. Of course, always "free as in beer" would be nice, but if I need to pay to get the most out of my time and therefor money again, well, it's ok.

Edit, seems the shutdown has hurt the filesystems on the vm, let's hope a simple fsck is enough. Edit3, damn, --rebuild-tree is needed, fingers crossed.

Edit2, if someone got a little room to spare on a server, it would be nice to have a wiki or something else allowing for better co-working. I currently only got some normal webspace :/
i'll ask mdeininger if he can spare a bit, 1 mo.

Actually, I have some space that i'm not using, I just have no clue how to set it up to use a wiki. Let me ask monkeh if he can help
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Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi

Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, btw, a new `fine` file is up, and has currently 2244 pkgs.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i now have to try to remember all my details. I set the website up and forgot about it
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Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi

Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If we could agree, we could also use a service like wikia.com or the like.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
If we could agree, we could also use a service like wikia.com or the like.
when it gets set up it'll be at wiki.georgeprowse.co.uk or georgeprowse.co.uk/wiki

I have to go out shopping soon so it may not be up for a few hours
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Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi

Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
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avx
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been quicker, just upgraded my space and created a wiki @ http://phorcix.org/wacko/ - nothing on there, yet, so play around.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done. I kept getting errors whilst unpacking those rars of the vmware images but i'll see if they work
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Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi

Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
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avx
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to bed soon, but if it helps. I could make a torrent out of linuxdna's or my current vm. Ok, I could only seed at 120kb/s max, but if some people could help, that'd be nice.

In other news, I found LFS has released a new handbook not so long ago and since I build my last LFS about 5 years ago, I'll see if I can make a basic one with ICC over the weekend - if my wife doesn't have other plans, that is :P

The current status is 2872 successfully merged packages btw. Of course, there's a lot of "no compile needed"-stuff in there, but well, at least nothing's blown up real bad for now.


Last edited by avx on Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
I'm going to bed soon, but if it helps. I could make a torrent out of linuxdna's or my current vm. Ok, I could only seed at 120kb/s max, but if some people could help, that'd be nice.

In other news, I found LFS has released a new handbook not so long ago and since I build my last LFS about 5 years ago, I'll see if I can make a basic one with ICC over the weekend - if my wife doesn't have other plans, that is :P

The current status is 2872 successfully merged packages btw. Of course, there's a lot of "no compile needed"-stuff in there, but well, at least nothing's blown up real bad for now.
I think LFS is going a bit far, lets keep it with Gentoo - or funtoo - for now. I would like to base it on funtoo.

If you could host the torrent i would be very much obliged, i'll be going to bed soon so i'll just let it come down through the night
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Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi

Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
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avx
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't torrent it before tomorrow, just got some other thing to do, sorry.

Dunno if LFS is to far, one could build a nice stageX out of it, which would be nice for me since I'm quite unhappy with Gentoo's @system-set f.e. We'll see.

---

One big questions flowing through my head for some time now, so I might as well share/ask it.

What do we do with our knowledge/patches/... gained, if no one except us (meaning no devs) would care?

Will this result in some kind of overlay? A fork? A new distro? Just been some time and watts spend for nothing but a little fun?

Edit2, bedtime, good night.
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Butts McCokey
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
I won't torrent it before tomorrow, just got some other thing to do, sorry.

Dunno if LFS is to far, one could build a nice stageX out of it, which would be nice for me since I'm quite unhappy with Gentoo's @system-set f.e. We'll see.

---

One big questions flowing through my head for some time now, so I might as well share/ask it.

What do we do with our knowledge/patches/... gained, if no one except us (meaning no devs) would care?

Will this result in some kind of overlay? A fork? A new distro? Just been some time and watts spend for nothing but a little fun?

Edit2, bedtime, good night.
Have a fun overlay. Get some users and devs contributing patches and I think it may become a full project.
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Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi

Cold is gods way to tell us to burn more Catholics
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1clue
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I gotta ask. I'm familiar enough with Linux that I can do a Gentoo install, but how do you set up for this project?

I get the impression avx has an older system. I'm running an i7, but I'm still waffling about re-installing. I have a gentoo/raid setup installed on an alternate partition set, but somehow I don't think your kernels would work.

How difficult is it to set up for this? Can somebody write a quick documentation diff? Would you recommend a 64-bit/raid setup, or would I need to use a non-RAID setup?
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avx
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i7, me too :)

I've done nothing special, really. In VMware I created a "Other Linux 64bit" system and bootet it up via the latest sysresccd. Created some partitions, downloaded and extracted the latest autobuild and portage-snaps, c&p'd the needed files for easier ICC handling (namely the bashrc and packages.gcc - look at the Gentoo-wiki.com for ICC). Setup net, chrooted, --sync'd, emerged ICC, dropped my license into place, env-updated and off it goes. Then I built a kernel, but didn't boot it, so I'm still in chroot, but can merge packages relying on a configured kernel(f.e. cryptsetup). That's it.

So not at all difficult, but you can of course also use the VM provided by linuxdna - I saw that to late, so I had already started with my own.
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avx
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, just made a torrent out of LinuxDNA's VM, I hope some people help seeding, so it'll be faster than their official mirror.

http://phorcix.org/proj/gentoo_icc/gentoo_icc_cleanvm.tar.gz.torrent

If you guys want/need, I can clean up my vm a little, split it into system-only and binpkgs and also .torrent it.

Edit, just found this post, should be a good starting point for the ones interested in uclibc.

Edit2, short update, 4400+ packages merged. eix lists a total of ~13900 packages available, so not counting everything which is only available hardmasked or not for amd64 that should be ~45-50% merged.
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platojones
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
Ok, just made a torrent out of LinuxDNA's VM, I hope some people help seeding, so it'll be faster than their official mirror.

http://phorcix.org/proj/gentoo_icc/gentoo_icc_cleanvm.tar.gz.torrent

If you guys want/need, I can clean up my vm a little, split it into system-only and binpkgs and also .torrent it.

Edit, just found this post, should be a good starting point for the ones interested in uclibc.

Edit2, short update, 4400+ packages merged. eix lists a total of ~13900 packages available, so not counting everything which is only available hardmasked or not for amd64 that should be ~45-50% merged.


Not sure what I'm doing wrong here. I'm trying to download with ktorrent, but it's stalled and stays that way. I can download other torrents now.
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avx
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, I'm seeding this from my desktop and that has been turned off until now. Should be working now.
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dwbowyer
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thread sort of jumped from clang/LLVM to icc, so I'd like to throw this out there, as a loyal AMD buyer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_C%2B%2B_Compiler#Criticism

I'm thinking any change from GNU tools would have to be processor agnostic, before I'd support a switch.
Also, licensing would be an issue too:

From right off a google search...
"...free downloads for evaluation and non-commercial use."


But, that said, I support the idea of a few people exploring alternative options. Now if only you could find
one we could all use on equal and Free (as in speech AND beer) choice. Which leads US back to OP?
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avx
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it's pretty logic that ICC will give the best performance on an Intel CPU, isn't it? But that doesn't mean, that it's not running on AMD, in fact, a few private tests of mine show, that ICC@AMD still outperforms GCC(Edit, not to mention that there are some ways around the "problem").

My goal is to make Gentoo so compatible, that anyone can choose his prefered compiler/libc. I've only taken on ICC, because I need to use it anyways and I don't have much experience with LLVM/clang. So for the people interested, I just post my results/findings, but if you think, this thread has gone to far from the initial topic, you can always ask a moderator/admin to split it up, I'm perfectly fine with that :)

BTW, anyone actually trying something with clang?
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Dr.Willy
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
BTW, anyone actually trying something with clang?

My impression is that it's too early to use clang as the system compiler:
http://clang.llvm.org/cxx_status.html wrote:
Clang currently implements nearly all of the ISO C++ 1998 standard (including the defects addressed in the ISO C++ 2003 standard). However, the implementation of Clang C++ is still quite immature, with many remaining bugs that are likely to cause compiler crashes, erroneous errors and warnings, and miscompiled code. The LLVM bug tracker contains a Clang C++ component that tracks known Clang C++ bugs.
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wswartzendruber
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm trying to figure out how to use QEMU on various targets to get llvm and clang unmasked on those targets.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Dr.Willy, the FreeBSD-team begs to differ, I'd say. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.current/124678
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Recently, we've achieved the state when clang can compile all of FreeBSD world on i386/amd64 platforms (including all the C++ apps we have and itself) and a bootable kernel.
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Shining Arcanine
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

avx wrote:
@Dr.Willy, the FreeBSD-team begs to differ, I'd say. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.current/124678
Quote:
Recently, we've achieved the state when clang can compile all of FreeBSD world on i386/amd64 platforms (including all the C++ apps we have and itself) and a bootable kernel.


I believe we have the FreeBSD team to thank for that because they filed more than one hundred bug reports as they were trying to build FreeBSD with Clang:

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzI1Ng
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