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Dr.Willy
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 Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| speeddemon wrote: | I always love seeing these threads were everyone rips on java, just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.  |
Why would anyone like it?
The python/ruby guys don't like it, because its a lot like C++ and the C++ guys don't like it because it's a lot like a scripting language.
That makes java kinda useful-ish everywhere, but doesn't win anybody's heart. |
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hellbringer
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | jdmulloy wrote: | | It's cross-platform alright. Runs like shit everywhere. |
Indeed it does. It takes the lowest common denominator of all the platforms it supports, which makes doing certain tasks very tedious. I remember a project I worked on in CSE where we had to use Java with networking and it was painful.
When it came to interoperability, everyone else working on their versions of the project seemed to assume UCS-2 (not byte-oriented as was intended). I blame the Java APIs for that. |
Well the truth is that networking, in fact I/O in general, *is* hard. It's even made harder because it seems deceptively simple due to the amounts of abstractions we have to deal with the complexity. The problem is that all those abstractions are leaky, they leak in unsuspecting ways, and they leak (ergo suck) differently dependeing on your OS, language, platform, VM, etc.
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| esper wrote: | | I end up defaulting to java as my quickest way out of sys admin work while I'm stuck in this penis state. |
Is it that you have a liking for web development, or a dislike of admin work and just want out? I'm more the latter, but don't have any real programming skills. There always seem to be jobs for developers though. *sigh*
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shrndegruv
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:54 pm Post subject: Re: How multi-platform is java actually? |
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| esper wrote: | | I've not done any development in java, but I've heard from friends who do that the multi-platform concept of the language is more myth than reality. Can anyone way on that? |
There are always issues because certain things are different across platforms. For example, my last contract I was developing on a mac and deploying to solaris. Was dealing with xml, so there were issues with default encoding settings between the mac and solaris, so things worked in one environment and not in another. Also, sometimes there are bugs in jvm implementations that can byte you on specific platforms. I think in most situations, at least for web apps, you only deploy in one environment so cross compatibility is not really an issue. For desktop or webstart apps, it *could* be more of an issue, but Ive never worked on those.
It is cross compatible enough though so that you can develop in one platform and deploy to another, with the above described types of things to be aware of.
Also know that when you talk about java web development, there are so many frameworks to use that its as much about knowing the frameworks as it is about java. You could write an all java webapp, but that would suck....
Finally, I think the future of java is going to be jvm based languages/platforms like groovy/grails, scala, perhaps jruby. They allow you to develop shit quickly and not have to deal with all the configuration hell that comes with tradition j2ee development.
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jonnevers
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| speeddemon wrote: | | I always love seeing these threads were everyone rips on java, just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. |
me too because its pathetic for any developer to carry around so much prog. language dogma.
i feel warm and fuzzy b/c i'm better off for being language agnostic. its the right tool for the job not just blind (and worthless) hatred/criticism. to me this is one of the big distinctions between fodder developers and people that actually embrace comp sci.
plus this thread is like a sad time warp back to 1999. |
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zixnub
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Joined: 27 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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Java's alright but has it shortcomings, just like any other language. People who rip on it -or any other language- usually don't know what they're talking about (except for VB ffcrs)
People who claim it's slow should go crawl back under their ancient stone of the elders. People who claim it's not platform independent should learn to write platform independent code (or at least do some rudimentary checks when interacting with the OS) and should learn that ME != EE != SE != android and basically that base libraries actually do stuff differently when they have different names...
I agree that swing/awt is quite shitty (not to say the least). My advice would be to use something else, qt-jambi (qt for java) has my love. Most Java ides also have very nice refactoring capabilities. Something I haven't found in other languages so far.
I like python as well. Very fast and elegant code writing. However its lack of refactoring, its relatively slow execution time and its runtime checking make it hard to build large projects with, all time saved by its compact syntax is lost because of this imho.
Use the right tool for the right job.
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Kenji Miyamoto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| zixnub wrote: | | I agree that swing/awt is quite shitty (not to say the least). My advice would be to use something else, qt-jambi (qt for java) has my love. |
What's your opinion on SWT?
Refactoring isn't a priority because it should be avoided anyway (code should be written well to begin with). Refactoring is overhead regardless of the tools used.
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shrndegruv
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| zixnub wrote: | Java's alright but has it shortcomings, just like any other language. People who rip on it -or any other language- usually don't know what they're talking about (except for VB ffcrs)
People who claim it's slow should go crawl back under their ancient stone of the elders. People who claim it's not platform independent should learn to write platform independent code (or at least do some rudimentary checks when interacting with the OS) and should learn that ME != EE != SE != android and basically that base libraries actually do stuff differently when they have different names...
I agree that swing/awt is quite shitty (not to say the least). My advice would be to use something else, qt-jambi (qt for java) has my love. Most Java ides also have very nice refactoring capabilities. Something I haven't found in other languages so far.
I like python as well. Very fast and elegant code writing. However its lack of refactoring, its relatively slow execution time and its runtime checking make it hard to build large projects with, all time saved by its compact syntax is lost because of this imho.
Use the right tool for the right job. |
++ on everything. Yes, IDEs make working with java so much better. Intellij FTW
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Dr.Willy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | Refactoring isn't a priority because it should be avoided anyway (code should be written well to begin with). Refactoring is overhead regardless of the tools used. |
That has little to do with quality of code and a lot to do with change requests. |
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speeddemon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr.Willy wrote: | | speeddemon wrote: | | I always love seeing these threads were everyone rips on java, just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. |
Why would anyone like it?
The python/ruby guys don't like it, because its a lot like C++ and the C++ guys don't like it because it's a lot like a scripting language.
That makes java kinda useful-ish everywhere, but doesn't win anybody's heart. |
I don't know, but it seemed like half the CS department in college thought java was the everything language. Teaching an operating systems class where the only programming is done in java  I've met other people before who though if you were writing a desktop application of any kind, java is the only language you should consider.
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shrndegruv
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| speeddemon wrote: | | Dr.Willy wrote: | | speeddemon wrote: | | I always love seeing these threads were everyone rips on java, just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. |
Why would anyone like it?
The python/ruby guys don't like it, because its a lot like C++ and the C++ guys don't like it because it's a lot like a scripting language.
That makes java kinda useful-ish everywhere, but doesn't win anybody's heart. |
I don't know, but it seemed like half the CS department in college thought java was the everything language. Teaching an operating systems class where the only programming is done in java I've met other people before who though if you were writing a desktop application of any kind, java is the only language you should consider. |
this is where 'use the right tool for the job' comes in. half of your CS department are wrong.
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shrndegruv
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr.Willy wrote: | | Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | Refactoring isn't a priority because it should be avoided anyway (code should be written well to begin with). Refactoring is overhead regardless of the tools used. |
That has little to do with quality of code and a lot to do with change requests. |
refactoring should be part of the development process. You implement a feature, it works, then some business type says they need it to do something else, or integrate with Y, or whatever, you need to refactor...
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Kenji Miyamoto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| shrndegruv wrote: | | Dr.Willy wrote: | | Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | Refactoring isn't a priority because it should be avoided anyway (code should be written well to begin with). Refactoring is overhead regardless of the tools used. |
That has little to do with quality of code and a lot to do with change requests. |
refactoring should be part of the development process. You implement a feature, it works, then some business type says they need it to do something else, or integrate with Y, or whatever, you need to refactor... |
That really depends on the language, the requested change, and the developer.
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big dave
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| esper wrote: | | I really dig python, lisp, and regol. None of them are getting me jobs and regol costs 500$ for all the useful stuff. |
that's exactly the problem. unless you're a project manager at a university with a lush budget or some in-house IT guy running the whole show, there's no way you can stray from the most common languages (java, php, python, perl, c++, c#). you pick the one that you hate the least. |
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Kenji Miyamoto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| big dave wrote: | | esper wrote: | | I really dig python, lisp, and regol. None of them are getting me jobs and regol costs 500$ for all the useful stuff. |
that's exactly the problem. unless you're a project manager at a university with a lush budget or some in-house IT guy running the whole show, there's no way you can stray from the most common languages (java, php, python, perl, c++, c#). you pick the one that you hate the least. |
At my workplace that list includes Tcl.
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big dave
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | big dave wrote: | | esper wrote: | | I really dig python, lisp, and regol. None of them are getting me jobs and regol costs 500$ for all the useful stuff. |
that's exactly the problem. unless you're a project manager at a university with a lush budget or some in-house IT guy running the whole show, there's no way you can stray from the most common languages (java, php, python, perl, c++, c#). you pick the one that you hate the least. |
At my workplace that list includes Tcl. |
some minorities do tcl, and other minorities do ruby/rails. there are tons of other minorities. but the main ones are still listed above (not necessarily in that order). |
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zixnub
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | zixnub wrote: | | I agree that swing/awt is quite shitty (not to say the least). My advice would be to use something else, qt-jambi (qt for java) has my love. |
What's your opinion on SWT?
Refactoring isn't a priority because it should be avoided anyway (code should be written well to begin with). Refactoring is overhead regardless of the tools used. |
No experience with swt so far.
Refactoring is a constant process in the writing of every application, unless you write a pure academic, completely 100% pre-engineered application. In all other cases as your application matures things will change and you'll have to refactoring in order to keep the code base clean and efficient.
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shrndegruv
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| zixnub wrote: | | Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | zixnub wrote: | | I agree that swing/awt is quite shitty (not to say the least). My advice would be to use something else, qt-jambi (qt for java) has my love. |
What's your opinion on SWT?
Refactoring isn't a priority because it should be avoided anyway (code should be written well to begin with). Refactoring is overhead regardless of the tools used. |
No experience with swt so far.
Refactoring is a constant process in the writing of every application, unless you write a pure academic, completely 100% pre-engineered application. In all other cases as your application matures things will change and you'll have to refactoring in order to keep the code base clean and efficient. |
++
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rtomek
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| speeddemon wrote: |
| Shining Arcanine wrote: |
I have been required to write code in Java for many of my computer science classes and it feels like programming with mittens. It makes me wish Java was never invented. :/ |
I believe I had 2 classes in college that weren't java. 1 was assembly, and the other class was 3d graphics with openGL, which used C. Our operating systems class even used java for all the programming assignments . |
My college was in the process of converting C++ to java, luckily I got it in while it was still C++ and the students who were 1 year behind me could only do java. The college my wife went to had converted to java before she got there and had to do java. |
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Kenji Miyamoto
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| shrndegruv wrote: | | zixnub wrote: | | Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | zixnub wrote: | | I agree that swing/awt is quite shitty (not to say the least). My advice would be to use something else, qt-jambi (qt for java) has my love. |
What's your opinion on SWT?
Refactoring isn't a priority because it should be avoided anyway (code should be written well to begin with). Refactoring is overhead regardless of the tools used. |
No experience with swt so far.
Refactoring is a constant process in the writing of every application, unless you write a pure academic, completely 100% pre-engineered application. In all other cases as your application matures things will change and you'll have to refactoring in order to keep the code base clean and efficient. |
++ |
Is that why a lot of commercial software is bloated?
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Dr.Willy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | What's your opinion on SWT? |
I havn't worked with jambi, but SWT is pretty ok.
| Kenji Miyamoto wrote: | | Is that why a lot of commercial software is bloated? |
No, it's because often enough you don't get time for refactoring. |
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esper
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| pjp wrote: | | esper wrote: | | I end up defaulting to java as my quickest way out of sys admin work while I'm stuck in this penis state. |
Is it that you have a liking for web development, or a dislike of admin work and just want out? I'm more the latter, but don't have any real programming skills. There always seem to be jobs for developers though. *sigh* |
Both. There are only so many times i can stomach setting up shares/user groups/and security policies. Shit I've been doing since highschool. I really dig programming of any kind. I'm focussed on web apps now simply because I feel that in the near future desktop apps are going to fade in the light of new web technology.
I'm all sorts of thankful for the insights from this thread. I was hoping to see advocates for the aspects of java that don't get much lime light.
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Xaero
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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| jdmulloy wrote: | | It's cross-platform alright. Runs like shit everywhere. |
Can I get a ++??
But seriously, I tried coding a Minesweeper application in Java. And maybe it was a matter of me just having coded it that badly, but at some point I realized that it was just too resource intensive and it just wasn't gonna work. IIRC(it was awhile ago I admit) the problem happened when clicking a blank space, and the program then had to iterate through adjacent spaces and click() each button, beforehand checking if isClicked() was true. And if that space was blank then calling the method on that button etc. It took about a second for each (program-generated) button click. I was pretty painful to watch. Again I don't know if that was totally on me but even for the 3ghz Pentium 4 I coded it on I feel like it should have been no sweat. shrugs |
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jdmulloy
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Xaero wrote: | | jdmulloy wrote: | | It's cross-platform alright. Runs like shit everywhere. |
Can I get a ++??
But seriously, I tried coding a Minesweeper application in Java. And maybe it was a matter of me just having coded it that badly, but at some point I realized that it was just too resource intensive and it just wasn't gonna work. IIRC(it was awhile ago I admit) the problem happened when clicking a blank space, and the program then had to iterate through adjacent spaces and click() each button, beforehand checking if isClicked() was true. And if that space was blank then calling the method on that button etc. It took about a second for each (program-generated) button click. I was pretty painful to watch. Again I don't know if that was totally on me but even for the 3ghz Pentium 4 I coded it on I feel like it should have been no sweat. shrugs |
Especially since Microsoft had Minesweeper in Windows 3.1 on 386s.
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pjp
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| Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| esper wrote: | | There are only so many times i can stomach setting up shares/user groups/and security policies. |
:) Yeah. My main complaint is 24/7 support.
| esper wrote: | | I'm focussed on web apps now simply because I feel that in the near future desktop apps are going to fade in the light of new web technology. |
Definitely a growth area. I think there will always be a place for desktop apps, but the phone/mobile space is absolutely the place to be. Maybe I should put down RoR and see about Java too.
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