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hoacker
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

el_Salmon wrote:
Gentoo Release Team could to begin to release a 2009 Installation CD


Hm, the latest installation CDs linked on the "Get Gentoo!" page are
  • install-x86-minimal-20090623.iso
  • install-amd64-minimal-20090702.iso
  • install-powerpc-minimal-20090712.iso
  • ...

The oldest one (x86) is about 3 weeks old. OK, the most prominent links is the 2008.0 release that really need to be removed.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

el_Salmon wrote:
Well, I'm afraid you suggest too many changes in Gentoo. Let's go to do it easy. Firstly, the basics. Gentoo Release Team could to begin to release a 2009 Installation CD or USB and then support a Wiki for the community.


There's already the unofficial wiki. Why do you think there's a need for an official one?

This issue was actually discussed a relatively short while ago (less than a year). The problem is the manpower and time required to run the wiki.

If you ask me, the Gentoo developers should concentrate on updating the unofficial documentation before they start worrying about unofficial documentation. The handbooks are starting to get badly out of date, having not yet been updated for autobuilds, the removal of the livecd or even the removal of GRP (which actually happened before 2008.0 iirc)
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
el_Salmon wrote:
Well, I'm afraid you suggest too many changes in Gentoo. Let's go to do it easy. Firstly, the basics. Gentoo Release Team could to begin to release a 2009 Installation CD or USB and then support a Wiki for the community.


There's already the unofficial wiki. Why do you think there's a need for an official one?

Because we need a Gentoo Wiki hosted in stable and liable server and a good solution would be Gentoo Foundation supports it. The current situation is that we have lost "unofficial" but valuable documentation because hosting problems in the Gentoo-Wiki.com server. Moreover, other distros have official documentation AND wiki (Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, etc.) because an official wiki allows the users begin to involve in the community without strict rules and permissions.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
a thing to point out, that gentoo, due to it's nature as source based distro needs a lot of cpu-power and thus energy for it's compiling process.

tbh, its marginal, i work for a company that enjoys speed, we use high power profiles in everything, keep the stuff running for years, buy the most expensive equipment, and only use it 40 hours per week if we actually use it

and you whine about gentoo taking a little compile time ?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually had the same thought a while back (well, minus the burning-up-the-earth part). Does the efficiency gained by compiling yourself outweigh the extra energy used in the actual compilation?

In practice I doubt it matters much - but then, I like making my machine more efficient if I can. It's not really any sillier than spending lots of money and effort just to get a slightly better score on some synthetic benchmark, and there are lots of people who do that.

It would be great to test this experimentally, but it would require a huge amount of time and effort, and getting an apples-to-apples comparison would be almost impossible. But if you really wanted to... maybe you could set up a bunch of machines on different distros, including Gentoo and some others that use binary packages, with exactly the same set of software installed (or as close as possible). Update them all at the same frequency, and run each one through the same set of usage tasks for the same amount of time daily, and record power usage with a Kill-A-Watt or similar over the course of a few weeks or months....

...who wants to help me set this up? Don't all speak at once. :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

el_Salmon wrote:
AllenJB wrote:
el_Salmon wrote:
Well, I'm afraid you suggest too many changes in Gentoo. Let's go to do it easy. Firstly, the basics. Gentoo Release Team could to begin to release a 2009 Installation CD or USB and then support a Wiki for the community.


There's already the unofficial wiki. Why do you think there's a need for an official one?

Because we need a Gentoo Wiki hosted in stable and liable server and a good solution would be Gentoo Foundation supports it. The current situation is that we have lost "unofficial" but valuable documentation because hosting problems in the Gentoo-Wiki.com server. Moreover, other distros have official documentation AND wiki (Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, etc.) because an official wiki allows the users begin to involve in the community without strict rules and permissions.


Nothing was actually lost. Through the wonders of the internet, the entire old wiki was mirrored in a number of places. The new wiki is more reliable than ever and downtime has been extremely low. I don't see how the wiki being on official hardware allows more community involvement than the current wiki - it would be exactly the same, just with different people administering it (from the discussions mentioned earlier, most likely no one at all, meaning it would be riddled with spam).

In many ways the wiping of the wiki was a blessing. While there have always been a number of good articles on the wiki, a huge chunk of it was outdated and unmaintained. The original policies put in place when it was small (eg. page naming conventions) also made it a huge pain to maintain. The wiping allowed the correction of these issues. The popular, high quality articles have already been added back to the wiki and more are being added all the time. Personally I believe the wipe was an overall gain for the wiki.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
Personally I believe the wipe was an overall gain for the wiki.


I agree.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, and all those worried about excessive energy should set their disks to spin down appropriately, and various other things in the Power Management Guide (have done this for a good few years myself).
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm very concerned by the environment and still, I use Gentoo and don't feel bad about it at all. Before that, I was on windows vistcrap and I ran it on a quad core with a big gtx 280 to get decent results. When i decided to give a try at linux (I started with Gentoo, a lot and never had to regret it, hard, maybe, but a great learning experience) I dusted off my "old" athlon 64 X2 5000+ (65 W footprint) with its Geforce 7300 GS ( power consumption for the graphic card at peak level: 16W ). Performance are so good that I hardly ever feel the need to use the quad anymore. I'm pretty sure the overall difference in power consumption vastly outweigh the energy burnt by the various compilation. Actually, I also have an atom 330 (sadly enough, not the ion version) and if weren't of the video, it would also make for a very descent, low energy computer.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

slack---line wrote:
Oh, and all those worried about excessive energy should


switch off their boxes if not needed and use true on/off power switches to eliminate standby power consumtion

slack---line wrote:
(have done this for a good few years myself)


In this state my Gentoo boxes beat any other box with a binary distribution running idle. :lol:
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact, because you run also the service that you need and it's because it's a custom build installation.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:27 am    Post subject: Gentoo, what would you do for carbon emission reduction? Reply with quote

I was guessing that Gentoo could be the largest linux distribution in carbon emission because of its unique package installation method. Any thoughts?
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MACHINE wrote:
Any thoughts?
I think you should have searched before posting.

Merged the preceding post.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sera wrote:
As you can see at least one of our admins thinks it's the right topic.
Given the post I originally merged, this was by all appearances the most suitable fit as that post was addressing the energy efficiency of Gentoo as a whole, though it was using a rather inappropriate metric given the variety of sources of electricity supplying users of Gentoo. After that post was merged the discussion rapidly swung away from the topic at hand, as such AidanJT is entirely correct in suggesting that this is not the right place to continue that discussion. I will not be merging this digression into that topic simply because both were active during the same period to the point that it would make the whole harder to follow than the parts would be separately.

Split off "Tangential duplicate."
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read through this thread and I've got a couple comments to make...

While I'm not at all a gentoo expert (or even a developer for that matter), and I'm still learning a lot every day even, I think that either we should have a completely "from source" distro, or we should have a binary distro. I think that if we start migrating away from "from source" then we will continue to migrate. i. e. adding a little binary twist now will speed things up... then a couple years later, gentoo might add another twist. Then another. And personally, I think its just not a good idea. Because, even if someone used the same use flags and cflags (kind of unlikely unless they have almost the same computer, I think)... some things would have to be different in some way, shape, or form. I mean, if they have different hardware but it was "close" to yours, then your app might not be as fast as it could be.

Although I really like the idea of community networking to speed up compilation and such, I think there is a few things to consider:

1. One could seriously question both the security of such a setup and also whether they could trust other people (and this was already mentioned previously). I think that if there was any way of getting some kind of virus or spyware thing into Gentoo... this would be it.

2. I don't like the idea of slowly migrating away from source towards binary for various reasons (as mentioned above).

3. This kind of setup would not at all be good for people who either have slow internet access or for those who have satellite links (like me) and have pings in the 700-1400 range with downloads speeds at about 2Mb/sec and a limit of 500MB/day. And thats for spending $129.95 per month.

4. If Gentoo did ever go with such a thing like this, I think that even if it did work... it would probably make many users complain and this would cause many to leave gentoo, while also at the same time some might come to gentoo because of it. I think that something like this has to be optional. Some people don't want to be sharing their stuff, while others do not mind.

5. Most people who would dare setup gentoo either knows a lot or they want to know a lot. These such people probably have fairly fast computer(s) and already take advantage of discc and things like that. They already have a fancy small network going on and it probably works really good. Otherwise, they probably would leave gentoo. That said, not everyone would benefit from a peer to peer network setup. Plus, computers are getting faster and faster and unless package size increases with it and no means of building faster packages are created... this would make for faster compilations.


So, there is a better solution, I think... but its very rough and I have no idea how to get it working.

As we all know, there are ways to make gentoo speed up compilation of packages, but there is nothing for speeding up the OS in general by using other computers. I think that this is possible somehow, but I don't know how and it would probably take a lot of developing.

Basically, lots of servers especially on our own home network are not using all of their hard drive/ram/cpu and if this could be put to use somehow by allowing other computers to use it, then that would work out a lot better. But, there would have to be rules in place. Like say, one computer should not use more than 40% of another computer's resources... or something like that.

I know that there is something where you can install linux on your old computer and give it a ethernet cable and put it in a closet or something and "donate" the cpu power to science. This has got to be possible with gentoo. If not the cpu, then maybe the ram. lots of people have tons of ram on one computer and hardly any on the next. Lots of things can be done in ram (firefox, compcache, portage, and even to boot the entire computer in ram). So, the fast computer can help the slower computer... maybe.

And also, this kind of setup would probably work great for a peer-to-peer networking situation. But there are still some problems.

1. One would question the security of this kind of system.
2. This would have to be optional as not everyone wants it.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

belikeyeshua wrote:
I know that there is something where you can install linux on your old computer and give it a ethernet cable and put it in a closet or something and "donate" the cpu power to science. This has got to be possible with gentoo.
Unless I am misunderstanding your post, it has been possible for some time.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
belikeyeshua wrote:
I know that there is something where you can install linux on your old computer and give it a ethernet cable and put it in a closet or something and "donate" the cpu power to science. This has got to be possible with gentoo.
Unless I am misunderstanding your post, it has been possible for some time.


may also be talking about SETI
which has been around for years upon years as well - though that's a bit more of a focused shared usage
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I figured that was what was being referred to in the literal sense, at least on a small scale distcc seemed a fairly close analog in the domain of compiling sources.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 30, 2009 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cach0rr0 wrote:
desultory wrote:
belikeyeshua wrote:
I know that there is something where you can install linux on your old computer and give it a ethernet cable and put it in a closet or something and "donate" the cpu power to science. This has got to be possible with gentoo.
Unless I am misunderstanding your post, it has been possible for some time.


may also be talking about SETI
which has been around for years upon years as well - though that's a bit more of a focused shared usage


Yes, SETI. That was what I was thinking about but I forgot what it was called.

cache0rr0--> Yes, I know distcc has been possible for some time now. But I'm not so sure about sharing ram, cpu, etc. etc.

EDIT:

Distcc focuses on using the cpu to make faster emerges... but it does not help with the general speed of another computer. Thats what I'm getting at.
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 31, 2009 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

belikeyeshua wrote:
Distcc focuses on using the cpu to make faster emerges... but it does not help with the general speed of another computer. Thats what I'm getting at.
So, you want a cluster?
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