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d2_racing
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 10, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact, the spammers will be there now :twisted:
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lordcris
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you can see the results of the google embargo :

In total there are 82 users online :: 13 Registered, 7 Hidden and 62 Guests [ Administrator ] [ Moderator ] [ User Representative ] [ Developer ]
Most users ever online was 1850 on Fri Dec 31, 2004 00:17

96% drop in active users!
cheers!
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think4urs11
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
Most users ever online was 1850 on Fri Dec 31, 2004 00:17

96% drop in active users!

the majority of those 1850 were related to some phpbb-worm beeing active during that time. ~300-400 would be a more realistic high-water mark
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think4UrS11 wrote:

the majority of those 1850 were related to some phpbb-worm beeing active during that time. ~300-400 would be a more realistic high-water mark


ok sorry,

only 80% drop then

my mistake!
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
my mistake!
The mistakes, plural, would be:
  • Comparing a peak usage figure to users online right now (139 now, btw), without data on peak hours in the diurnal load cycle;
  • Assuming the all-time peak (from 4+ years ago) represents average daily peak usage prior to the Googlebot moratorium;
  • Assuming search effectiveness has a negative correlation with user activity and visitation;
  • Neglecting other factors contributing to a putative decline in forum activity, e.g., Gentoo today not being the "fad" that it once was.
This is not to say the forums' absence from Google did not hurt users and perhaps lead some to depart. However, lack of an effective search does not mean answers can't be found here--most people simply go ahead and ask their questions anyway. Some include a disclaimer that they suspect it's a dupe but "the forum search sucks." :)

The moderation team was rather less aggressive about locating dupes while the spider was blocked--you may not have noticed, but we tagged far fewer duplicate threads in that time than the preceding year. It's a two-fold empathetic response: we felt your pain and search sucked for us, too. :lol:
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think4urs11
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
only 80% drop then
high-water mark != average
Just to avoid your complains - yes, on average there are probably fewer users active on the forums nowadays.
Using the 'glass is half full'-principle this can mean that Gentoo is mature enough so that a lot of the issues our users had are no longer there (in same amount).
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think4UrS11 wrote:
lordcris wrote:
only 80% drop then
high-water mark != average
Just to avoid your complains - yes, on average there are probably fewer users active on the forums nowadays.
Using the 'glass is half full'-principle this can mean that Gentoo is mature enough so that a lot of the issues our users had are no longer there (in same amount).


or most of those issues were already posted and solved :wink:
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lordcris
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't believe you guys are so blind.

Highest usage != average usage ...

age you kidding me?!!?!?
So, post then the "official" statistics than. i am not an administrator and i don't have access to them. maybe you smartasses do.

Quote:
yes, on average there are probably fewer users active on the forums nowadays.

Probably?!?!

Quote:
mean that Gentoo is mature enough so that a lot of the issues our users had are no longer there...

give me a break!!!!

once i started using gentoo 8 years ago it was on the top three search results in google for "linux"
and it was it the top 10 distributions by popularity.
now it is not even in the first 20
http://distrowatch.com/stats.php?section=popularity
and most users have never even heard about it. i'will be surprised if it occupied more than 0.10% of the linux segment.

maybe you will be surprised when this distribution dies in a couple of years, but
i surely wont be!
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think4urs11
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
Highest usage != average usage ... are you kidding me?!!?!?

Nope, that's a mathematical fact ;)

lordcris wrote:
maybe you will be surprised when this distribution dies in a couple of years, but i surely wont be!

Me neither, death is a perfectly normal (last) part of every life. So far i'm happy with Gentoo, if that'll change some day i'll switch - so what?
I'd just be curious why the fact that other distributions have more/less users is relevant to you.
The distro-landscape changes every day, the users have much more choices today than 1/2/4/8 years ago - the relevant part is that the total number of linux (or *BSD) users is constantly rising and this is imho a good thing.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
So, post then the "official" statistics than. i am not an administrator and i don't have access to them. maybe you smartasses do.

We don't really have any continuous over time statistics. You can check out the stats at big-boards, but that only goes one year back.

Anyway, the real high mark is 590 from October 5th 2004, triggered by the GWN blurb about the website redesign contest vote.
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lordcris
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Think4UrS11 wrote:

Me neither, death is a perfectly normal (last) part of every life. So far i'm happy with Gentoo, if that'll change some day i'll switch - so what?
I'd just be curious why the fact that other distributions have more/less users is relevant to you.
The distro-landscape changes every day, the users have much more choices today than 1/2/4/8 years ago - the relevant part is that the total number of linux (or *BSD) users is constantly rising and this is imho a good thing.


you just don't get it, do you?!

even if the total number of linux users is rising, those of gentoo users is shrinking. we have an inverse trend here!!!!
this is not the NORMAL conclusion of every life. gentoo is not a dysfunctional distribution, surpassed by technological standards ( like win95 ).
gentoo is without a doubt the BEST linux distribution out there and the fact that is losing ground is caused by a series of unfortunate choices
( one of which is the infamous google ban! ).
you asking me why is important to have many users?!
a bigger gentoo community makes the distribution more reliable, faster and easier to use.
also one could easily find more job opportunities if more business were aware of the advantages of using gentoo.
but unfortunately as of today we have the same number of users of KNOPPIX , Zenwalk and sidux.
do you find this a GOOD thing?!
is it NORMAL for you?
maybe it is
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think4urs11
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
the fact that is losing ground is caused by a series of unfortunate choices (one of which is the infamous google ban!).

Which has been fixed and i agree with you that this wasn't exactly a good idea to have happened at first place - any others? Name them then they can be addressed if enough people think they're relevant.

lordcris wrote:
also one could easily find more job opportunities if more business were aware of the advantages of using gentoo.

Job offers out there which demand specific distro knowledge are rare (most are fine with good linux knowledge as well)
If you can dance the emerge-shag you can quickly adopt to the rpm-rumba (and vice versa) but in both cases you're not neccessarily a good linux-dancer as well.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="lordcris"]
Think4UrS11 wrote:
gentoo is not a dysfunctional distribution, surpassed by technological standards ( like win95 )


The dysfunctionality of Gentoo is not technological.
It is due to developers and moderators.
The googlebot saga is just one example.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rambam wrote:
It is due to developers and moderators.
The googlebot saga is just one example.


i'd leave the moderators out of this... if you recall, us moderators were in the dark about what infra did. we only get to play crowd control. :?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 07, 2009 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="rambam"]
lordcris wrote:
Think4UrS11 wrote:
gentoo is not a dysfunctional distribution, surpassed by technological standards ( like win95 )


The dysfunctionality of Gentoo is not technological.
It is due to developers and moderators.
The googlebot saga is just one example.


If you remove the second line, this is perfect, IMHO. Ego is a problem in any OS project. Gentoo needs to find a better balance again.

Another 7+year user (~2002).
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energyman76b
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so what, the people who always use the 'cool distro of the moment' left for ubuntu and fedora. Nothing lost by losing that people.

They will find another cool distro soon and then ubuntu will go down.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
a bigger gentoo community makes the distribution more reliable, faster and easier to use.
I disagree.

More users doesn't necessarily create any of those. Sure, you'll say "But we'll get more bug reports and so it'll create more of those things" but you're ignoring that an increase of users doesn't mean an increase in useful bug reports. And with shitloads of users, I bet they'll get a big increase in the number of duplicate reports too.

And if it's any indication of what kind of contribution we'd get from having a larger community, I can't count the number of times I'd go to the installing gentoo section and see someone say "I reinstalled my kernel and changed one of the options but I boot and it's not built-in" and I'd tell them "You shouldn't mounted /boot first." And incidentally, this occurrence dropped as the popularity dropped.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting what tone people are writing posts in and then wonder when they get a saucy answer. Anyway, improving Gentoo is not done by shouting in a forums post but by getting things done as active user or developer. I strive through forum sometimes to find problems people have with the programs I maintain. They complain and complain, but I (as maintainer) never received an email or bug report. And that sucks most.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

slycordinator wrote:
lordcris wrote:
a bigger gentoo community makes the distribution more reliable, faster and easier to use.
I disagree.

More users doesn't necessarily create any of those.


maybe they don't or maybe they do create them.
but less users don't create a better distribution, you can bet your shirt on it.
there will allays be those who struggle withe the advanced tasks like kernel compilation,
this doesn't mean that we are better-off without them,
au contraire mon ami,
often the less capable users are great testers, bug reporters and are far less lazy than the standard gentoo user.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V-Li wrote:
Interesting what tone people are writing posts in and then wonder when they get a saucy answer. Anyway, improving Gentoo is not done by shouting in a forums post but by getting things done as active user or developer. I strive through forum sometimes to find problems people have with the programs I maintain. They complain and complain, but I (as maintainer) never received an email or bug report. And that sucks most.


which program do you maintain?
which users complain and about what they do it?
your comment is rather generic; it resembles one of the complaints you are talking about. ;)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

one of the most stable distributions is slackware. Stable, quick, easy to use (if you can make use of a text editor). Userbase? tiny.

Mepis is good, Sidux is said to be very good. Huge userbases? No.

Fedora - huge userbase, pure crapfest.
Ubuntu - huge userbase, pure crapfest.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
but less users don't create a better distribution, you can bet your shirt on it.
Again, I disagree. If you have a small team of users that are all really good at what they do, that doesn't somehow make the distro not get better. Just like having a huge team of mediocre people doesn't somehow make the distro better either.

My point is that there's more to it than number of users. Number of users alone will never make a distro better.

lordcris wrote:
there will allays be those who struggle withe the advanced tasks like kernel compilation,
The "advanced task" that they were failing on was mounting a partition before copying stuff to it. And this wasn't an isolated incident or anything.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lordcris wrote:
V-Li wrote:
Interesting what tone people are writing posts in and then wonder when they get a saucy answer. Anyway, improving Gentoo is not done by shouting in a forums post but by getting things done as active user or developer. I strive through forum sometimes to find problems people have with the programs I maintain. They complain and complain, but I (as maintainer) never received an email or bug report. And that sucks most.


which program do you maintain?
which users complain and about what they do it?
your comment is rather generic; it resembles one of the complaints you are talking about. ;)


There were people rageuos about vpnc not working in their setup (it was special) for months. After I found the thread (don't know what it exactly was), upstream fixed it on my notice. The same for GNU Emacs and its packages. God, the Emacs team has no problems with hints by email, we investigate it.

And yes, my comment was generic, because the details are not needed here anyway. Always there is "Gentoo is dying" and "You developers/mods are shit", I have been insulted heavily when stabilising KDE 3.5.something and broke the tree for some hours (there was no way around that at that time).
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

V-Li wrote:
Interesting what tone people are writing posts in and then wonder when they get a saucy answer. Anyway, improving Gentoo is not done by shouting in a forums post but by getting things done as active user or developer. I strive through forum sometimes to find problems people have with the programs I maintain. They complain and complain, but I (as maintainer) never received an email or bug report. And that sucks most.


perhaps we should put a big fat pointer at the main gentoo.org page saying:

if a package is really really broken then file bug-report at bugs.gentoo.org and stop complaining and insulting on the forums - n00b ! :roll:

to their / my defense: I've been in the dark about bug-trackers for a pretty long time while using gentoo (I didn't know that they existed or in fact didn't know that they were a direct connection to the devs in order to fix a problem rather fast and efficiently - so the simplest solution probably would be to mount a link at the top of the forums referring to bugs.gentoo.org :?: :idea:
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

energyman76b wrote:
one of the most stable distributions is slackware. Stable, quick, easy to use (if you can make use of a text editor). Userbase? tiny.

Mepis is good, Sidux is said to be very good. Huge userbases? No.

Fedora - huge userbase, pure crapfest.
Ubuntu - huge userbase, pure crapfest.


where exactly would you put gentoo in your chart?
and where you would have put it 8 years ago?
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