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srunni
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 Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: |
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It's really sad that everyone is starting to use English, which has a lot of illogical irregularities. We should all be using Esperanto or Lojban.
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | drizek wrote: | You mean it will go extinct...  |
Pretty much  |
Pity. What will happen to the wee folk then. Will they go *poof*, never to be seen again? |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | It's really sad that everyone is starting to use English, which has a lot of illogical irregularities. We should all be using Esperanto or Lojban. |
English is the C++ of verbal languages. It's highly inconsistent, with all kinds of special cases, but it's in such widespread use it doesn't make sense to try to get everybody to use something else.
A better answer than trying to create a new language from scratch is to try to gradually eliminate the special cases and inconsistencies (while guarding against NewSpeak). |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Pity. What will happen to the wee folk then. Will they go *poof*, never to be seen again? |
Either that, or get assimilated by Europe like the rest of us.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | It's really sad that everyone is starting to use English |
Better that, than a planet full of people who don't understand each other.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:18 am Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | BoneKracker wrote: | | Pity. What will happen to the wee folk then. Will they go *poof*, never to be seen again? |
Either that, or get assimilated by Europe like the rest of us. |
Resistance is futile. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | Either that, or get assimilated by Europe like the rest of us. |
Resistance is futile. |
 Indeed
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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srunni
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:47 am Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | It's really sad that everyone is starting to use English |
Better that, than a planet full of people who don't understand each other. |
The whole point of Esperanto is for usage in international communication. A study showed that an average Chinese person can learn Esperanto in 20% of the time it would be necessary to learn a comparative level of English. Can you imagine how much of a benefit it would be if all those 1.3 billion people could communicate with the rest of the world? The same principle applies in most other countries that speak non-Indo-European languages.
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | It's really sad that everyone is starting to use English |
Better that, than a planet full of people who don't understand each other. |
The whole point of Esperanto is for usage in international communication. A study showed that an average Chinese person can learn Esperanto in 20% of the time it would be necessary to learn a comparative level of English. Can you imagine how much of a benefit it would be if all those 1.3 billion people could communicate with the rest of the world? The same principle applies in most other countries that speak non-Indo-European languages. |
It's the same old problem -- network effect.
So what if it takes only 20% of the time to learn? Then you can only talk to the five other people who know Esperanto. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 3:53 am Post subject: |
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Yes, but a greater percentage of the world already speaks English, and it's expressive enough to convay pretty much anything. As the old saying goes, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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srunni
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:33 am Post subject: |
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Yeah, yeah, I know about the network effect---that's obvious. And it's not 5 people, it's 2 million ;/
| AidanJT wrote: | | "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". |
Actually, it is broken; that's the point I'm trying to make 
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". |
Actually, it is broken; that's the point I'm trying to make |
Anything more specific as to where English fails?.. I mean, other than learning curve.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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srunni
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | Anything more specific as to where English fails?.. I mean, other than learning curve. |
All the non-standard grammar, the necessity to memorize spellings, the irregular pronounciation, etc.
IIRC, some Lojban advocates actually showed that one can think more logically when using a logically-oriented language like Lojban.
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:47 am Post subject: |
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Meh. English is good enough. If a switch is needed, the world should switch to Hindi. I already know that and its rules are pretty logical and consistent.
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At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:49 am Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". |
Actually, it is broken; that's the point I'm trying to make |
Anything more specific as to where English fails?.. I mean, other than learning curve. |
English will be the global language until the next empire.
It's the global language now because of the last one (the British Empire). Before that it was French because of Napoleon. Before that it was Latin because of the Roman Catholic Church and Rome.
Next, in 100 years or so, it will be Simplified Chinese (written) and Mandarin-medium (spoken).
But it will never be Esperanto. |
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dforsyth
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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we read it all.
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srunni
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | Next, in 100 years or so, it will be Simplified Chinese (written) and Mandarin-medium (spoken). |
That would be even more idiotic. Who wants to sit around memorizing all those characters? It's an enormous waste of time. According to Firefly, English and Mandarin will be used in parallel.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | But it will never be Esperanto. |
Yeah, but that's not my point. I'm saying it should be.
| runningwithscissors wrote: | | Meh. English is good enough. If a switch is needed, the world should switch to Hindi. I already know that and its rules are pretty logical and consistent. |
You're just biased. Besides, if it were possible to switch the entire world, why wouldn't you want to switch to the best possible language? Also, typing Hindi is not as simple as the Latin alphabet, as you have to have special software to form the ligatures.
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
Last edited by srunni on Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:55 am; edited 1 time in total |
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runningwithscissors
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | You're just biased. Besides, if it were possible to switch the entire world, why wouldn't you want to switch to the best possible language? Also, typing Hindi is not as simple as the Latin alphabet, as you have to have special software to form the ligatures. |
"Best language" is kind of subjective though, isn't it? Also, there are Hindi typewriters, we could co-opt their key layout and everything will be cool.
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At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome. |
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srunni
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| runningwithscissors wrote: | | "Best language" is kind of subjective though, isn't it? |
I should have been clearer. By best, I meant easiest to learn and use.
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| Ha1f wrote: | | we read it all. |
And write it too, sort of. The translation programs get better all the time.
It's English, and it won't change until somebody else takes over most of the world. That could be the Chinese, the Russians, the Chinese, or theoretically the Arabs. The only way Esperanto could figure into that would be if the Chinese were to adopt it because their own chicken-scratching is too ridiculous to impose on the rest of the world. |
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aidanjt
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | All the non-standard grammar, the necessity to memorize spellings, the irregular pronounciation, etc. |
English grammar is non-standard?.. First I've heard of it. Granted, the grammar rules aren't as strict as say, C, but it does have room for flexibility by design, it's an organic, constantly evolving, and robust language. Every language requires memorising words if you want to speak it without pulling out and flicking through a dictionary in order to compile a sentence. And pronounciation is simply regional variance that you typically get when you move a concept from one area to the next.
| srunni wrote: | | IIRC, some Lojban advocates actually showed that one can think more logically when using a logically-oriented language like Lojban. |
Logically speaking, that's speculative, and relative at best.
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| juniper wrote: | | you experience political reality dilation when travelling at american political speeds. it's in einstein's formulas. it's not their fault. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | IIRC, some Lojban advocates actually showed that one can think more logically when using a logically-oriented language like Lojban. |
Kind of makes you wonder how humans managed to survive for millions of years without language (and being able to think logically).
Even my cat thinks logically: "If I meow near the door, then he will open the door. If I shit on the carpet, then he will beat me with a shoe. Therefore, I will meow near the door, and then shit outside." But somehow he manages to that without verbal reasoning. |
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srunni
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| AidanJT wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | All the non-standard grammar, the necessity to memorize spellings, the irregular pronounciation, etc. |
English grammar is non-standard?.. First I've heard of it. Granted, the grammar rules aren't as strict as say, C, but it does have room for flexibility by design, it's an organic, constantly evolving, and robust language. Every language requires memorising words if you want to speak it without pulling out and flicking through a dictionary in order to compile a sentence. And pronounciation is simply regional variance that you typically get when you move a concept from one area to the next. |
I didn't say memorization of words needs to be eliminated, though Esperanto does eliminate that as well by allowing for spontaneous creation of new words by agglutination, such that memorization is almost never necessary. But anywho, I was talking about spelling. In English, spelling is so irregular that we have spelling bees to see who can spell the best, which is totally idiotic. There should be a one-to-one correspondence between the written and spoken versions of the language.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | IIRC, some Lojban advocates actually showed that one can think more logically when using a logically-oriented language like Lojban. |
Kind of makes you wonder how humans managed to survive for millions of years without language (and being able to think logically). |
| AidanJT wrote: | | Logically speaking, that's speculative, and relative at best. |
Well, yes, relatively better. But in all seriousness---any improvement is good, isn't it? If it were practical that is. Note that I'm not talking on a practical level here. I know that it's not even practical to reform spelling in English, let alone start using a whole new language.
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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BoneKracker
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| srunni wrote: | | AidanJT wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | All the non-standard grammar, the necessity to memorize spellings, the irregular pronounciation, etc. |
English grammar is non-standard?.. First I've heard of it. Granted, the grammar rules aren't as strict as say, C, but it does have room for flexibility by design, it's an organic, constantly evolving, and robust language. Every language requires memorising words if you want to speak it without pulling out and flicking through a dictionary in order to compile a sentence. And pronounciation is simply regional variance that you typically get when you move a concept from one area to the next. |
I didn't say memorization of words needs to be eliminated, though Esperanto does eliminate that as well by allowing for spontaneous creation of new words by agglutination, such that memorization is almost never necessary. But anywho, I was talking about spelling. In English, spelling is so irregular that we have spelling bees to see who can spell the best, which is totally idiotic. There should be a one-to-one correspondence between the written and spoken versions of the language.
| BoneKracker wrote: | | srunni wrote: | | IIRC, some Lojban advocates actually showed that one can think more logically when using a logically-oriented language like Lojban. |
Kind of makes you wonder how humans managed to survive for millions of years without language (and being able to think logically). |
| AidanJT wrote: | | Logically speaking, that's speculative, and relative at best. |
Well, yes, relatively better. But in all seriousness---any improvement is good, isn't it? If it were practical that is. Note that I'm not talking on a practical level here. I know that it's not even practical to reform spelling in English, let alone start using a whole new language. |
I think you'd be getting beat with a shoe even more than my cat.  |
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srunni
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| Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| BoneKracker wrote: | | I think you'd be getting beat with a shoe even more than my cat. |
 
i can haz explunashun pl0xkthxbai
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| Patrick Ewing wrote: | | if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it’s a duck, right? So if this duck is not giving you the noise that you want, you’ve got to just punch that duck until it returns what you expect. |
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