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tsunam
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:37 pm    Post subject: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

Well, this is the first time in a long time I've actually visited the forums. As other methods seem to be failing, going to give it a try here. I've made a few posts on planet about some items I'd personally like to hear about and try to get more users involved in the community as a whole in some fairly simple ways (for issues you've said exist.....)

http://tsunam.org/2008/01/29/arch/
http://tsunam.org/2008/01/29/perception/

Both give at least one way of helping the project with varying levels of requirements. As well I outright request to get bombarded by emails for suggestions and I've gotten 2-3 in the posts. For a community who has stated in a very loud voice they want more involvement and I would say that I've been trying to listen...there's been a sudden move of everyone going silent again. I don't know about you, but I certainly can not read minds and actually need you to tell me when you have something on your mind.

I've stated that I'm available at tsunam at gentoo.org and that userrel at gentoo.org will happily take your ideas and work on either implementing them, explaining why they might not work for the project and working to improve them. I'm willing and offering to work with you..and there's been very little actually response to that.

So I'm here trying to see if this gets more people actually to suggest things. As I said in one of those posts.....

I’ve certainly heard your unified voice, now let me hear you individually.


Honestly, with the stickied reply at the top and no responses to userrel at that one either...it certainly is feeling a lot like a lot of talk with very little action. (yes this is designed to get make you a little upset so you actually do send idea's as personally I find it far easier to deal with email/irc (#gentoo-userrel) then to poke through 40+ pages to find 4-5 ideas that are discussed Ad infinitum.)
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is kind of confusing and/or depressing. Why are people content to rant and rave amongst themselves or at thin air, but aren't jumping on an opportunity to discuss things with someone who actually might have the ability to make real changes?

Is Gentoo so hopeless that no one cares enough to try to fix it? Or are there no real tangible "problems" worth discussing?
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only things that really bug me is the overuse of overlays, and that portage seems to be going nowhere.

I understand that overlays are great for the devs, and for people wanting to help out and make their own ebuilds. But its getting to the point that software is getting stuck in overlays and never making it to the main tree. The biggest one I can think of off the top of my head is ET:QW. The newest linux supported commercial game, and its still in an overlay.

That was always one of the big attractions back in the old days, pretty much any opensource software, all you had to do is emerge foo. Now, you have to figure out if its in the main tree, if not then figure out which overlay, then emerge layman and ..... (I used it once, and proceeded to uninstall it right away). I'd rather install things from source and bypass portage altogether than use overlays.

And either fix portage, or start working towards officially supporting another package manager.

If either of those 2 things happen (I doubt they will), then seriously I really would help.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:09 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

tsunam wrote:
...


Quote:

I’ve got a few things to ask and hope you consider why this might just be so and some of the consequences that are caused by this.

Do you really need the latest version of hal?


Oh I don't know... how about how us GNOME users are like 2nd class citizens when it comes to gentoo :roll: how long did gnome-2.20 take to even go ~ARCH (like all prev gnome releases..), then look at KDE4.0 AND ALL OTHER KDE RELEASES... difference of MONTHS!!!!

It is easier to to ~ARCH and maintain a small /etc/portage/package.mask then it is to maintain a HUGE /etc/portage/package.mask and /etc/portage/package.unmask


seriously do you really believe what you wrote?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
Oh I don't know... how about how us GNOME users are like 2nd class citizens when it comes to gentoo :roll: how long did gnome-2.20 take to even go ~ARCH (like all prev gnome releases..), then look at KDE4.0 AND ALL OTHER KDE RELEASES... difference of MONTHS!!!!

From what I've seen in #-desktop that's not quite true: GNOME gets lots of gentoo-dev time, it just happens to be a pig to work with (from what I've seen.) The new policykit looks like a real mess, reinventing ACLs, to give a current example.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
http://tsunam.org/2008/01/29/arch/
http://tsunam.org/2008/01/29/perception/


i´m not sure this is the best communication channel if you want to reach as many users as possible, i maybe read the planet once a week and read "gentoo chat" once in six months because i almost have no interest in what is being discussed here, apart from english not being my first language. Maybe for those like me, some sort of announcement in the forums ( like the GLSA ones on top of the forums) or something more official like requesting feedback in gentoos mainpage would help more than just what one can write in his personal blog.

Quote:
This is kind of confusing and/or depressing. Why are people content to rant and rave amongst themselves or at thin air, but aren't jumping on an opportunity to discuss things with someone who actually might have the ability to make real changes?
Is Gentoo so hopeless that no one cares enough to try to fix it? Or are there no real tangible "problems" worth discussing?


i was asking the same thing to myself ...


About the arch keywords, in my first gentoo install i used arch and after a few months i found myself dealing with about 30 entries in package.keywords ( and growing), so that i finnally just switched to ~arch and i´m quite sure this is what many do or did at some point.
This was long time ago and i suppose things might have changed a lot, but i´m still on ~arch mainly because it actually feels stable enough for me talking as a desktop user ( some annoyances from time to time, yes, but nothing unexpected i have to say).

Just my impressions.

cheers
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
tsunam wrote:
...


Quote:

I’ve got a few things to ask and hope you consider why this might just be so and some of the consequences that are caused by this.

Do you really need the latest version of hal?


Oh I don't know... how about how us GNOME users are like 2nd class citizens when it comes to gentoo :roll: how long did gnome-2.20 take to even go ~ARCH (like all prev gnome releases..), then look at KDE4.0 AND ALL OTHER KDE RELEASES... difference of MONTHS!!!!

It is easier to to ~ARCH and maintain a small /etc/portage/package.mask then it is to maintain a HUGE /etc/portage/package.mask and /etc/portage/package.unmask


seriously do you really believe what you wrote?


Well, I can't speak for gnome, but kde 3.5.8 just went stable. I was personally completely satisfied with kde 3.5.7, and there was no compelling reason to upgrade. Also, I'd rather have a bug free gnome go stable than a buggy version go stable.

One other thing: gnome 2.20.3 is going stable as we speak.....
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
Naib wrote:
Oh I don't know... how about how us GNOME users are like 2nd class citizens when it comes to gentoo :roll: how long did gnome-2.20 take to even go ~ARCH (like all prev gnome releases..), then look at KDE4.0 AND ALL OTHER KDE RELEASES... difference of MONTHS!!!!

From what I've seen in #-desktop that's not quite true: GNOME gets lots of gentoo-dev time, it just happens to be a pig to work with (from what I've seen.) The new policykit looks like a real mess, reinventing ACLs, to give a current example.


Yer I have heard that a few times. But GNOME is just an example.
To be fair Tsunam's has a kinda point
Quote:
Do you really need the latest version of hal?

and for me... No, couldn't be arsed and why? because I am not a user of HAL (or most of the apps/libs on my system) I am a user of maybe a couple of dozen apps.

And yer I couldn't say off the top of my head what the changes to the latest HAL is BUT I can with the latest apps I use, cause I explicitly want them. Now if those apps need to use the latest HAL, then I am gonna have to pull it in now arn't I.

Take graveman... I updated my cdr and that doesn't reconise that *IF* a new version is released I would go ~ARCH with it to see if it works
There are loads of apps like that

But whats the point in having ~ARCH? leave packages in testing, if no new bugs for 30days (old bugs resolved) then make it stable?
Take ghdl... VERY old package BUT is still ~x86.
Take mumble, 0.9.4 that is still ~x86, it wont even compile on AMD64, the 1.1.1 ebuild which does compile on amd64 and x86 is STILL hardmasked
Take http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=203721
patch submitted to get ghdl working on amd64... still not in tree so me wanting todo VHDL stuff with ghdl not only needs it as ~amd64 BUT in my local overlay.
or take: http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=137000
issue with how nvidia builds w.r.t. ccache BUT a dev responds "I compile everything with FEATURES="ccache" and have NEVER been able to
reproduce this." Gosh must mean their aint an issue...

THERE are packages that are just stuck in ~ARCH (many of which don't have to be) and if you want to use them you need to ~arch them in packages.keyworks


soon this list gets too big and it is easier to manage a package.mask file and go ~ARCH then a huge package.keywords and go ARCH (I would like to go ARCH and become a AT for amd64 but it aint gonna happen). Are more dev's needed sure, are more AT needed sure, no need to make comments like "do users need the latest and greatest..." if the system as it stands means we do then us as user will unmask






Lets for a moment assume that all users are to use ARCH (mmm smells a bit of "Only developers should use GEntoo" but hey I am not in a happy mood)
New package comes along... sits in hardmask while it is sorted out. It goes into ~ARCH.

Since dev's and AT are the only ones that should be un-arching packages for testing they test the packages and 30days later it gets pushed to end-users
WRONG!
Take emul-linux-x86-compat
I was having issues with a 32bit program and sound on my system with ~AMD64 emul-x86. Bug raised to say version bump please (since they were really far behind). they got a bump and were hardmasked. I unmasked them to try them to see if my issues would be fixed. I ran into an issue w.r.t. missing symlink wasn't formed. Bug submitted (like a good gentoo user) so when this packaged made it to ~ARCH it was closer to going ARCH

emul-linux-x86-compat got bumped and went ~ARCH. I tried and ran into EXACTLY the same issue, the symlink wasn't formed
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=200213
Dev's response
Quote:
The symlink is created.

the only explanation I can think of is you tried an earlier version of
emul-linux-x86-compat-200711?? where this bug did exist and you had to create
that symlink by hand
WRONG!
the issue in fact turned out to be a portage/sequence issue. IF it was left up to dev's and AT this would not of been spotten (since it wasn't) and when this went ARCH there would of been a hell of alot of bugs abt firefox and other 32bit C++ apps not working

So it takes users running ~ARCH packages and submitting bugs to ensure that Dev's and AT have full coverage and ensure that ARCH is stable



I don't really think it is fair for a dev to say users don't need to run ~ARCH (be it from a query P.O.V.) based upon him quite happily working with only 10 ~ARCH. I was ARCH when I was 32bit and over time package.keywords grew. Go amd64 and package known to be faar behind x86 so no question ~amd64 it was
BUT I am happy to submit bugs and patches where I can


So in short running users running ~arch is sometimes needed, and is beneficial to Gentoo as a whole
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

THERE are packages that are just stuck in ~ARCH (many of which don't have to be) and if you want to use them you need to ~arch them in packages.keyworks


You can look through your package.keywords and spot those that annoy you, then you look if they work fine and have been for at least 30 days in ~arch. If those requisites are met, then file a stabilisation bug. That's an easy way to contribute to make stable tree better ;-)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
So it takes users running ~ARCH packages and submitting bugs to ensure that Dev's and AT have full coverage and ensure that ARCH is stable

I don't really think it is fair for a dev to say users don't need to run ~ARCH (be it from a query P.O.V.) based upon him quite happily working with only 10 ~ARCH. I was ARCH when I was 32bit and over time package.keywords grew. Go amd64 and package known to be faar behind x86 so no question ~amd64 it was
BUT I am happy to submit bugs and patches where I can

So in short running users running ~arch is sometimes needed, and is beneficial to Gentoo as a whole


Naib,

Tsunam never proposed that only devs and AT's should use ~arch.
Quote:
There are only a few things with Gentoo that will irk me and that is when people say that its unstable.
-
-
-
The logical, at least to me, assumption is that most people actually run ~arch as their tree of choice.
-
-
-
Do you really need the latest version of hal?

Really, this is a serious question. Can you actually tell me the changes off the top of your head between the stable version and the latest development release thats in the tree? If you can then I can see you actually needing it.

If you can’t then why do you actually run unstable?

I’m curious actually.

He is talking to peeps who complain that Gentoo is unstable. He is not saying that no-one should use ~arch. He is just questioning if those that complain really have a need to run an ~arch system.

If you feel comfortable with using ~arch and even take the time to file bugs, you won't see anyone complaining. :D

This blog post simply wasn't addressed to you.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

ColdWind wrote:
You can look through your package.keywords and spot those that annoy you, then you look if they work fine and have been for at least 30 days in ~arch. If those requisites are met, then file a stabilisation bug. That's an easy way to contribute to make stable tree better ;-)

That's a good idea. After all, Naib is clearly an advanced user, so it's reasonable to ask him to file that type of bug imo. Does that apply to any user who has been using a package successfully for the 30 days, with no other bugs reported?

I didn't realise ATs had to run stable: I thought they tested stuff in unstable before it got to the main tree? Anyhow I'm still not convinced about running your whole system unstable. You're much better off using autounmask as it deletes old stuff (leaving comments behind.) For a start you won't leave yourself open to this kind of problem, and it's better to unmask packages consciously: stuff you're interested in, for which you'll file better bugs, rather than random libs you know nothing about. There's a lot of churn in unstable as people test, file bugs and new revisions are released with the patches.

My 2c ;P
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

Nephilim666 wrote:
...

yer I know :D just wanted to make the thread interesting.

If people run ~arch then moan about stability that is silly but then who do they blame for the stability... My firefox will crash every now and again is that Gentoo or upstream? ... more likely Adobe and flash
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
ColdWind wrote:
You can look through your package.keywords and spot those that annoy you, then you look if they work fine and have been for at least 30 days in ~arch. If those requisites are met, then file a stabilisation bug. That's an easy way to contribute to make stable tree better ;-)

That's a good idea. After all, Naib is clearly an advanced user, so it's reasonable to ask him to file that type of bug imo. Does that apply to any user who has been using a package successfully for the 30 days, with no other bugs reported?

I didn't realise ATs had to run stable: I thought they tested stuff in unstable before it got to the main tree? Anyhow I'm still not convinced about running your whole system unstable. You're much better off using autounmask as it deletes old stuff (leaving comments behind.) For a start you won't leave yourself open to this kind of problem, and it's better to unmask packages consciously: stuff you're interested in, for which you'll file better bugs, rather than random libs you know nothing about. There's a lot of churn in unstable as people test, file bugs and new revisions are released with the patches.

My 2c ;P


Advance Pain in the arse maybe.

but sure sunday ill submit a load of bugs to make packages stable
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ tsunam, Just by opening this dialog, progress has been made; many of us have believed that there was a serious disconnect between Devs and the end user. Also (I count myself in this mix), there are many who do not care for irc. The forums are where you will reach the most users, imo. :wink:
I guess I'm in the minority as far as Portage is concerned. It works fine for me, I love it. I'm running a stable x86 with a handfull or so items in /etc/portage/package.keywords. Sync takes a while, but it is still faster than a couple of years ago.

The first thing I would like seen done is an errata page added to the Installation Handbook. The whole expat issue is a prime example of needing a updateable errata. I do not think it reasonable to have a new user search the forums and bugzilla as a prerequisite to an installation. Great documentation is one of the factors I tried Gentoo years ago.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

An AT must have a stable base system. However, when testing stuff he must unmask some things to test them. This results in a mostly-arch-system-that-has-a-few-unstable-packages. :wink:
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

old school wrote:
I guess I'm in the minority as far as Portage is concerned. It works fine for me, I love it. I'm running a stable x86 with a handfull or so items in /etc/portage/package.keywords. Sync takes a while, but it is still faster than a couple of years ago.

Well, I run the same; stable x86 and amd64 with some stuff unmasked in keywords. You can halve your sync times if you disable metadata-transfer in FEATURES.
Quote:
The first thing I would like seen done is an errata page added to the Installation Handbook. The whole expat issue is a prime example of needing a updateable errata. I do not think it reasonable to have a new user search the forums and bugzilla as a prerequisite to an installation. Great documentation is one of the factors I tried Gentoo years ago.

update has /etc/warning and also picks up any revdep-rebuild messages from the devs which helps a fresh install no end. (Did my laptop with it last month and it worked a treat :) It'd be good if we could maintain that to warn about any of these sorts of breakages and handle them automatically for us.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: user relations and tsunam...requesting your ideas Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
ColdWind wrote:
You can look through your package.keywords and spot those that annoy you, then you look if they work fine and have been for at least 30 days in ~arch. If those requisites are met, then file a stabilisation bug. That's an easy way to contribute to make stable tree better ;-)

That's a good idea. After all, Naib is clearly an advanced user, so it's reasonable to ask him to file that type of bug imo. Does that apply to any user who has been using a package successfully for the 30 days, with no other bugs reported?


Yes, this applies to anybody who is capable of checking the ChangeLog to see how much time was the ebuild in the tree, search bugzilla for related bugs, and file a bug.

A template bug is something like this:
Product: Gentoo Linux
Severity: Enhacement
Summary: Stabilize foo/bar-1.0
Description:
foo/bar-1.0 is in the tree for X time and works fine on amd64.
emerge --info:
<Paste emerge --info output here>

or something like that. If the maintainer thinks it's fine to stabilize, he'll CC ATs and they'll stabilize the package, if not, the bug will stay open or closed with LATER.

If bug is closed or ATs are not CC'ed, DON'T TAKE IT AS AN OFFENSE, probably there's a reason for not stabilizing the package yet.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ColdWind wrote:
If bug is closed or ATs are not CC'ed, DON'T TAKE IT AS AN OFFENSE, probably there's a reason for not stabilizing the package yet.

Thanks, saved it as a tip; one thing though: I'd prefer it if devs explained why it wasn't stabilised. It doesn't have to be more than a line or two, along with a URL to an upstream bug if there is one. This informs any other users who might want the package stabilised, as well as being more polite, which matters. It also means they're more likely to get help on it.

A close with no explanation is counter-productive imo.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
ColdWind wrote:
If bug is closed or ATs are not CC'ed, DON'T TAKE IT AS AN OFFENSE, probably there's a reason for not stabilizing the package yet.

Thanks, saved it as a tip; one thing though: I'd prefer it if devs explained why it wasn't stabilised. It doesn't have to be more than a line or two, along with a URL to an upstream bug if there is one. This informs any other users who might want the package stabilised, as well as being more polite, which matters. It also means they're more likely to get help on it.

A close with no explanation is counter-productive imo.


not much we can really do to change how individuals interact and close things sadly.

Thank you all for the discussion on this. One good thing I saw is that there's been a "rash" of stabilization requests which has made me a happy developer that people are getting involved in that aspect as well. Keep up the good work =)
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tsunam wrote:
steveL wrote:
A close with no explanation is counter-productive imo.


not much we can really do to change how individuals interact and close things sadly.

Isn't there? Personally I think every dev should have a review once a year, to make sure they're up to date with any changes in required policy (eg the Code of Conduct) and more importantly the spirit of same. A policy that bugs must be closed with at least one line explaining why, enough that an advanced user can explain it (triage) doesn't seem that much of an imposition.

edit: fixed quote, sry bout that.


Last edited by steveL on Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
tsunam wrote:
A close with no explanation is counter-productive imo.


not much we can really do to change how individuals interact and close things sadly.

Isn't there? Personally I think every dev should have a review once a year, to make sure they're up to date with any changes in required policy (eg the Code of Conduct) and more importantly the spirit of same. A policy that bugs must be closed with at least one line explaining why, enough that an advanced user can explain it (triage) doesn't seem that much of an imposition.[/quote]

good idea

might have to submit another 30 stablity bugs later today
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
steveL wrote:
tsunam wrote:
A close with no explanation is counter-productive imo.


not much we can really do to change how individuals interact and close things sadly.

Isn't there? Personally I think every dev should have a review once a year, to make sure they're up to date with any changes in required policy (eg the Code of Conduct) and more importantly the spirit of same. A policy that bugs must be closed with at least one line explaining why, enough that an advanced user can explain it (triage) doesn't seem that much of an imposition.


good idea

might have to submit another 30 stablity bugs later today[/quote]

please do....

As far as the review....

Well lets look at it like this. Where is the manpower to do such a review? Who would want to do it? What are the true criteria? Remember we have both staff and ebuild developers.....all do something a little bit different.

Its one of those things you learn to love and hate about gentoo. Things look great on paper. When you look at implementing them. You hit a brickwall of sorts that's called "volunteers". Ultimately, everyone can tell everyone else to lick my swamp and well....people will leave for other pastures. There's no financial benefit for the majority of us when doing this project. Some of us are just lucky enough to have jobs that let us work on Gentoo as part of that job. The rest...have their own motivations. Its not like we can be like "go take anger management classes or else you're off the project". Its not a company. That's an idea that would be laughed at quite honestly. Its the fractional nature of Gentoo. It allows you to do so much (use $x package manager) (use $y window manager or none!) (build embedded, hardened, routers, webservers, dbs with just what you need).

I don't have the answers thats for sure but am always looking for more. I have no issue going back and forth on any and discuss why it might not work. Much of it will no doubt come back to the fact that you just can't force people to do things they do not want to.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tsunam wrote:
Naib wrote:
steveL wrote:
Personally I think every dev should have a review once a year, to make sure they're up to date with any changes in required policy (eg the Code of Conduct) and more importantly the spirit of same. A policy that bugs must be closed with at least one line explaining why, enough that an advanced user can explain it (triage) doesn't seem that much of an imposition.


good idea

might have to submit another 30 stablity bugs later today


please do....

As far as the review....

Well lets look at it like this. Where is the manpower to do such a review? Who would want to do it? What are the true criteria? Remember we have both staff and ebuild developers.....all do something a little bit different.

Yeah maybe the review's not such a great idea in terms of implementing it. I was thinking of the mentor doing it, but they can leave too.

Quote:
Its one of those things you learn to love and hate about gentoo. Things look great on paper. When you look at implementing them. You hit a brickwall of sorts that's called "volunteers". Ultimately, everyone can tell everyone else to lick my swamp and well....people will leave for other pastures. There's no financial benefit for the majority of us when doing this project. Some of us are just lucky enough to have jobs that let us work on Gentoo as part of that job. The rest...have their own motivations. Its not like we can be like "go take anger management classes or else you're off the project". Its not a company. That's an idea that would be laughed at quite honestly. Its the fractional nature of Gentoo. It allows you to do so much (use $x package manager) (use $y window manager or none!) (build embedded, hardened, routers, webservers, dbs with just what you need).

You don't need to be a dev to do that, though. If someone's bothered to learn enough to take the quiz, presumably they've also understood and accepted the Social Contract and devrel policy, and they have signed up to represent Gentoo. If not, just stay a contributing user.
Quote:
I don't have the answers thats for sure but am always looking for more. I have no issue going back and forth on any and discuss why it might not work. Much of it will no doubt come back to the fact that you just can't force people to do things they do not want to.

Surely not, but you can insist on minimum standards of behaviour. There are policies in place already, whether devs pay them any mind or not. The fact that some don't causes problems with users who also have a right to be treated courteously.

Just because someone is ignorant of something, it doesn't mean they have any less inherent value; if a dev doesn't want to deal with users, they should think about the difference between a coder and a developer.

I much prefer the former term for voluntary work; the point is that Gentoo used to be proud of turning out fully-fledged developers. Part of that maturation process is learning how to deal with users: if you don't do it IRL, you simply won't get paid. I think it's only about 5-10% of programmers who actually get paid to do nothing but code. The rest of us have to deal with users; and other non-technical stuff affects everyone at some point or another.

A policy that bugs should be closed with a sufficient explanation that someone else can explain it, is minor imo. It's a bit like the note when you can't use emake in an ebuild: it helps everyone, as well as making the dev think about what they're doing. And when you're on bugs or on the m-l, what you write, as a Gentoo dev, is an archive of how Gentoo works: make all of it something you're proud of.

Thanks for having the discussion :-)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
tsunam wrote:
Naib wrote:
steveL wrote:
Personally I think every dev should have a review once a year, to make sure they're up to date with any changes in required policy (eg the Code of Conduct) and more importantly the spirit of same. A policy that bugs must be closed with at least one line explaining why, enough that an advanced user can explain it (triage) doesn't seem that much of an imposition.


good idea

might have to submit another 30 stablity bugs later today


please do....

As far as the review....

Well lets look at it like this. Where is the manpower to do such a review? Who would want to do it? What are the true criteria? Remember we have both staff and ebuild developers.....all do something a little bit different.

Yeah maybe the review's not such a great idea in terms of implementing it. I was thinking of the mentor doing it, but they can leave too.

Quote:
Its one of those things you learn to love and hate about gentoo. Things look great on paper. When you look at implementing them. You hit a brickwall of sorts that's called "volunteers". Ultimately, everyone can tell everyone else to lick my swamp and well....people will leave for other pastures. There's no financial benefit for the majority of us when doing this project. Some of us are just lucky enough to have jobs that let us work on Gentoo as part of that job. The rest...have their own motivations. Its not like we can be like "go take anger management classes or else you're off the project". Its not a company. That's an idea that would be laughed at quite honestly. Its the fractional nature of Gentoo. It allows you to do so much (use $x package manager) (use $y window manager or none!) (build embedded, hardened, routers, webservers, dbs with just what you need).

You don't need to be a dev to do that, though. If someone's bothered to learn enough to take the quiz, presumably they've also understood and accepted the Social Contract and devrel policy, and they have signed up to represent Gentoo. If not, just stay a contributing user.
Quote:
I don't have the answers thats for sure but am always looking for more. I have no issue going back and forth on any and discuss why it might not work. Much of it will no doubt come back to the fact that you just can't force people to do things they do not want to.

Surely not, but you can insist on minimum standards of behaviour. There are policies in place already, whether devs pay them any mind or not. The fact that some don't causes problems with users who also have a right to be treated courteously.

Just because someone is ignorant of something, it doesn't mean they have any less inherent value; if a dev doesn't want to deal with users, they should think about the difference between a coder and a developer.

I much prefer the former term for voluntary work; the point is that Gentoo used to be proud of turning out fully-fledged developers. Part of that maturation process is learning how to deal with users: if you don't do it IRL, you simply won't get paid. I think it's only about 5-10% of programmers who actually get paid to do nothing but code. The rest of us have to deal with users; and other non-technical stuff affects everyone at some point or another.

A policy that bugs should be closed with a sufficient explanation that someone else can explain it, is minor imo. It's a bit like the note when you can't use emake in an ebuild: it helps everyone, as well as making the dev think about what they're doing. And when you're on bugs or on the m-l, what you write, as a Gentoo dev, is an archive of how Gentoo works: make all of it something you're proud of.

Thanks for having the discussion :-)


Now that I can see being a guideline. One that really should not need to be said aloud but perhaps it does need to be reiterated. I agree many of us end up having to interact with users on some level. Internal and external users are ultimately the ones we all deal with as we are not in a glass bubble and have to develop some form of communication with people. Some people just never develop one that works well with most other people.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tsunam wrote:
steveL wrote:

I think it's only about 5-10% of programmers who actually get paid to do nothing but code. The rest of us have to deal with users; and other non-technical stuff affects everyone at some point or another.

A policy that bugs should be closed with a sufficient explanation that someone else can explain it, is minor imo. It's a bit like the note when you can't use emake in an ebuild: it helps everyone, as well as making the dev think about what they're doing.


Now that I can see being a guideline. One that really should not need to be said aloud but perhaps it does need to be reiterated. I agree many of us end up having to interact with users on some level. Internal and external users are ultimately the ones we all deal with as we are not in a glass bubble and have to develop some form of communication with people. Some people just never develop one that works well with most other people.

Agreed.

I don't see why it can't be a policy though. Failure to explain doesn't have to count as a major infraction (like being abusive to a new user should imo) but repeatedly refusing to explain, at least so that a fellow dev gets it, over a period of eg 6 months, should be afaic. It's a technical policy, with a technical motivation: maintenance.
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