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mrpringle
Apprentice
Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 284
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 Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:30 am Post subject: KDE 4 in gentoo portage? |
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Hey,
I'm just wondering how long it may take for KDE 4 to appear in portage after it has been officially released (Days, weeks, months?).
Thanks |
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Veldrin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 1945
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:07 am Post subject: |
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First of all, please use the search function, this questions has been answer at least once..
but to make it a little less painful:
KDE4.0 probably won't get into portage, but you'll have access to the ebuilds on the kde-overlay.
cheers
V.
PS. cynicism lies in my nature... |
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mrpringle
Apprentice
Joined: 27 May 2007
Posts: 284
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: |
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| Veldrin wrote: | First of all, please use the search function, this questions has been answer at least once..
but to make it a little less painful:
KDE4.0 probably won't get into portage, but you'll have access to the ebuilds on the kde-overlay.
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I did search, but just not too hard. Of course KDE will make it into portage eventually. I stay away from anything which requires overlay, so I suppose I'll be staying away from KDE 4 for a while unfortunately.. |
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BitJam
Advocate
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 2508
Location: Silver City, NM
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: |
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A search for KDE4 gives one page of results and none of them seems to address mrpringle's question.
Why do you say KDE4 will never make it into Portage? Are you predicting an early demise of Gentoo? |
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Veldrin
Veteran
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 1945
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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fair enough...
IIRC KDE4.0 (not KDE4) won't make it into portage. KDE4.1 is another matter..
cheers
V.
PS. Here is a link to what I was referring. (Though not entirely gentoo related.) |
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heini
n00b
Joined: 20 Sep 2002
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Veldrin wrote: | | ... but you'll have access to the ebuilds on the kde-overlay. |
Can anybody tell me what happened to it? The last commit was 3063, which deleted the top level directory and had a very short commit message of "Gone like the wind."
Bye...
Dirk |
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Veldrin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 1945
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Not entirely sure what to make of it
My guess is, that they are preparing for the KDE4 release, and thus creating a new overlay. |
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gimpel
Advocate
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 2720
Location: Munich, Bavaria
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| Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| heini wrote: | | Veldrin wrote: | | ... but you'll have access to the ebuilds on the kde-overlay. |
Can anybody tell me what happened to it? The last commit was 3063, which deleted the top level directory and had a very short commit message of "Gone like the wind."
Bye...
Dirk |
They moved from svn to git.
| Code: | | git clone git://www2.mailstation.de/git/genkde4svn-pub |
or use layman
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katswaio
n00b
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 21
Location: Iasi,ro
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:32 pm Post subject: Will KDE 4.0 get in the portage tree any time soon? |
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Now that the 4.0 code freeze was done and the 4.0 release event is days away, I'm looking forward to trying it out.
I know it would probably show up in the kde overlay pretty soon, but I'd probably wait until the ebuilds are stabilized and make it into the portage tree, if that would happen in the following couple of months or so. |
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nixnut
Bodhisattva
Joined: 09 Apr 2004
Posts: 10974
Location: the dutch mountains
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| Posted: Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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merged above post here.
please search before you post.
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cogent
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Joined: 10 May 2005
Posts: 66
Location: New Jersey, USA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry for my naiveness, but isn't this what the testing branch is for? To have software like KDE4.0? |
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Veldrin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 1945
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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yes, but...
this not just another minor upgrade (or even one of those new patch-levels..), we are talking about a X.0.0 release, and they tend to have far more problems than a the average minor upgrade (for the understanding: 3.4 to 3.5 is a minor upgrade, 3.5.7 to 3.5.8 is a patch-level upgrade).
And - that's where the problem is - not all parts have been ported to KDE4 yet - PIM will get into 4.1. So IIRC the gentoo devs did not want to release something like this - a half finished DE - onto the users.
BTW: KDE4.0 "will eat your children"...
I hope that explains it..
cheers
V. |
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Carlo
Developer
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 3356
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| Posted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| cogent wrote: | | Sorry for my naiveness, but isn't this what the testing branch is for? To have software like KDE4.0? |
Tetsting is for fairly usable stuff, without (major) known and unknown issues. KDE 4 is in large parts a whole rewrite and version 4.0 is a) missing functionality you're used to from KDE 3.5 as there was no time improve or (re-)implement everything useful, but the foundations were laid for a richer application stack for the years to come and b) is dedicated to developers, early adopters, enthusiasts - but not the ordinary user. It's to fresh and not stable enough to go into testing.
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avieth
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:35 am Post subject: |
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| Is KDE4 not going to appear in portage in 2 days when it's released? |
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ToeiRei
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Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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Location: Austria
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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as already said for other releases:
"It will be ready when it is" (tm)
... or use an overlay.
... or feel free to write your own ebuilds.
What's so special about KDE4 anyways? New features that are not used yet as applications are not fully ported yet?
Rei
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Let_Me_Be
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Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 65
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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KDE4 contains all aplications, the only thing about it is that some of them are still the old ones, not using the new cool features, and believe me, most of apps won't be untill KDE 4.2 (for example Kopete or KOffice).
If you want to keep KDE out of portage until KDE 4.2 then you will loose a huge amount of users. KDE 3.5 is going to be deprecated very soon, I don't see any posibility supporting both KDE 4 and KDE 3.5 properly. |
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DrAgOnTuX
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Joined: 22 Aug 2006
Posts: 176
Location: Switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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the version of the release in 2 day is 4.0.2, isn't it?
so will the ebuilds be in the overlay?
I would be happy to test kde 4.0.2 but I'm not a ebuild-writing-pro  |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Let_Me_Be wrote: | | KDE4 contains all aplications, the only thing about it is that some of them are still the old ones, not using the new cool features, and believe me, most of apps won't be untill KDE 4.2 (for example Kopete or KOffice). |
Right, there's a lot of hidden potential, but 4.0 won't be that impressive at all for the average user. Plus there's no point in migrating unless you need any new features.
| Quote: | | If you want to keep KDE out of portage until KDE 4.2 then you will loose a huge amount of users. |
No. If you want to migrate just for the coolness or the sake of migrating, you can use overlays. Portage devs have already a lot of work maintaining stable software, they don't need to bite their own asses by inserting another couple of thousands of unstable new ebuilds that will require continuous attention to be able to compile. Binary distros are another matter: they just compile one time and everything is right. But a source distro is not the same, you need to understand that.
| Quote: | | KDE 3.5 is going to be deprecated very soon |
No!
I don't know what your sources are. But kde 3.x has still a long life (probably many years). It will still be supported by the kde team, and security fixes will be applied. KDE4 is nowhere near a complete nor usable status for anything serious. If you want to play with it in your home, that's ok, but kde4 can't be used for anything serious (i.e. real work, corporate use, etc).
Sure that the main focus is going to be kde4, no doubt about that. But that doesn't automatically render kde3.x unsupported. |
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Veldrin
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Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 1945
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | No!
<snip>
Sure that the main focus is going to be kde4, no doubt about that. But that doesn't automatically render kde3.x unsupported. |
And my I suggest that everyone reads this blog entry from Aarin Seigo - KDE head dev....
Amongst other things it also states, that KDE3 will be sticking around for at least a few years. And that is main to larger institution, who don't want to do any migration - esp not to a unstable product as KDE4 is right now!
cheers
V. |
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furanku
l33t
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 905
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm ... I've seen over the years much more unstable stuff, like broken system tools, in testing than an optional KDE4. So I can't really understand why not put it into portage. Mask it maybe if you think it will really "eat your children" (TM). But I always thought gentoo is for experienced users and all about choice?! Nobody wants to see it in stable or even think about making it the default, but how should it mature if testers wait for it appearing in "testing"? I know testing is for testing ebuilds ... but, hey, KDE4 had such a difficult birth, so give it some love  !
I could understand KDE devs becoming a little bit frustrated if now, that they finally released something after all that criticism, distributors make it more difficult than necessary for voluntary testers. |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| furanku wrote: | | Hmmm ... I've seen over the years much more unstable stuff, like broken system tools, in testing than an optional KDE4. So I can't really understand why not put it into portage. Mask it maybe if you think it will really "eat your children" (TM). But I always thought gentoo is for experienced users and all about choice?! Nobody wants to see it in stable or even think about making it the default, but how should it mature if testers wait for it appearing in "testing"? I know testing is for testing ebuilds ... but, hey, KDE4 had such a difficult birth, so give it some love ! |
Yes, it's all about choice. You have the choice to use an overlay. If you aren't experienced enough to maintain an overlay you will not be experienced enough to deal with the kde4 compilation issues.
We are not talking about ~arch stuff. We are talking about packages that, sometimes, do not even compile, and need continual care and patching. If you are not willing to do the work yourlsef, you can urge the gentoo devs to do that work for you, after all, they are doing it for free. To maintain kde4 would require a lot of extra work, it is not just as easy as to pick random ebuilds and drop them into portage. Ebuilds need maintainers, are you willing to do the work?
This is just my opinion, of course. I don't really care if kde4 gets into gentoo or not, but since we lack dev power on some other places (more important places, in my opinion, than testing eyecandyware), my vote would be against including it in portage. Though thinking about it, I think it wouldn't really matter. Each dev choose to maintain the apps s/he is interested in. Probably, there are just not enough gentoo devs interested in kde4, or they do, but they have other -higher- priorities.
EDIT: I don't think this makes it harder for voluntary testers at all. Gentoo has had kde4 ebuilds around since kde4 was an spermatozoon. And instructions and community support has been around for ages. Such is the gentoo nature, do it yourself, and ask the community if something fails. It is impossible to provide official support because it's been a very dynamic entity that changed everyday. That is where community, lists, forums and irc comes handy. Moving the ebuilds that are into an overlay into portage would help no one, plus it would create lots of issues and problems for people that do not care at all about kde4, at least at the current state of things (yes, there are people that do not care at all about it). |
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furanku
l33t
Joined: 08 May 2003
Posts: 905
Location: Hamburg, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| i92guboj wrote: | Yes, it's all about choice. You have the choice to use an overlay.
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That's what I actually do.
| i92guboj wrote: | If you aren't experienced enough to maintain an overlay you will not be experienced enough to deal with the kde4 compilation issues.
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Calm down, why so aggresive? I did compile my SVN-KDE4 compilations by myself in the beginning. Hell, I did compile KDE pre1 versions myself. I make bug reports, provide patches if I can, I try to help others in the forums and on mailing lists. But I'm no developer. I'ld like to keep my system as clean as possible, and from my experience overlays cause more problems then official portage ebuilds, since they are not always in sync and you need to take care not to run into dependency problems.
| i92guboj wrote: | We are not talking about ~arch stuff. We are talking about packages that, sometimes, do not even compile, and need continual care and patching.
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I don't know what you are talking about. I'm talking about official released KDE4.x packages. |
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StifflerStealth
Retired Dev
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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| furanku wrote: | | Hmmm ... I've seen over the years much more unstable stuff, like broken system tools, in testing than an optional KDE4. So I can't really understand why not put it into portage. |
KDE is a very large system. Just look at all the split ebuilds there are. This is not a simple "system tool". It's a complex desktop environment that has many dependencies and also many things that depend on it. All that needs to be tested first. From my understanding, the KDE4 overlay that is in unsupported was a test bed for the new KDE4 technology and their ebuilds. The ebuilds cannot go into portage until the official release of 4.0.0 which is tomorrow. I heard that the devs want the ebuilds in portage when 4.0.0 is officially released, or as close to it as possible. So, no fear, it will be there.  The KDE4 ebuilds in the overlay are brilliant, so use them if you want it now. Really, they are. That overlay is maintained by some of the Gentoo KDE devs. So they exist, and so they they will be in portage when they are allowed to be there as per agreement with the KDE Developers. All KDE distributors must follow their rules, even though some don't, they should and the Gentoo KDE team follows the rules. I don't know why this was made into a big deal. :S People need to calm down and take a deep breath and stop utter speculation. |
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StifflerStealth
Retired Dev
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 968
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| furanku wrote: | | I don't know what you are talking about. I'm talking about official released KDE4.x packages. |
In the 4.0.0 tag on svn, that code is a little rough and there are patches that are needed to fix some bugs.  I had the 4.0.0 tag compiled and installed and I helped the KDE devs with some of the bugs I found. Most were fixed in branch. I hope the Gentoo devs make some patches based on branch, because some bugs are noticeable. |
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i92guboj
Bodhisattva
Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10315
Location: Córdoba (Spain)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| furanku wrote: |
| i92guboj wrote: | If you aren't experienced enough to maintain an overlay you will not be experienced enough to deal with the kde4 compilation issues.
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Calm down, why so aggresive? |
I don't see anything aggressive on that words. At least, that was not my intention. I was just stating something that I believe it is true. And I also explained why I think that merging these packages into portage would not work. There might be simply no one willing to take responsibility over such a huge task.
KDE4 is broken in many way, starting with xinerama and continuing with broken functionality in general. If there was enough devs to accomplish the task, then it would be nice to have it in portage, but even then I would just mask (not just keyword) it until it is ready. And with that in mind, I'd rather have it in an ebuild.
As I stated above, these are just my thought and opinions. I might be certain on some things, and completely wrong on many others. But one thing is for sure: I am far from feeling angry about this (or any other thing, by the way). Maybe I just lack the poetic skills or my English is not good enough to paint this or that shade on the picture of the words. 
EDIT: StifflerStealth described what I meant in the other post. So, no need to repeat it. It is "not that simple" (TM) to get kde4 working. And it is certainly not ready for daily usage. E17 was removed from the tree time ago for the same reason. I don't see why kde4 should get any additional priviledges. The case is mostly the same. I am a KDE lover (well, maybe not the whole kde concept, but I love lots of things about kde), but kde4 is simply not ready. This doesn't mean that I don't recognise the hard work the devs did. I think kde4 must be made available to the public, and I think that releasing is a good thing, but that has nothing to do with this discussion at all, under my point of view. |
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