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nickrout
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

heino wrote:
And you won't end up in every app listened in the menu, e.g. why would you wan't to have apache in the menu?


Thats why you should be getting the package maintainers to specify what should go in a menu. Guessing produces silly results. People say that is too much work for the package maintainers, but package maintainers specify and write startup files for daemons, why can't they make menu files for programs that need them. The work hes been done already, they can take most of what they need from debian/mandrake.
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jstubbs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Guessing" doesn't produce silly results; I managed to get a fairly decent menu without too much extra junk by creating a huge package mask (actually I reversed the program to only create items for packages specified). However, I concede that determining which executables should go in the menu and how they should be run (X or terminal) is more than work doing all the packages manually - even if not stealing them from Debian/Mandrake. So that's it for the autonomous automatic menu maker then, eh? :wink:

I guess I'll join that mailing list for the one heino suggested. Never know; maybe I can do something of use yet! :wink:

Jason
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h3k70
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is probably a silly question, but: what mailing list are you talking about?
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jstubbs
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2003 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, not a silly question 'coz there doesn't seem to be a mailing list. I was just going by memory but the mailing list is actually for discussion of the freedesktop desktop menu specification. Too much research! :oops:
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lanius
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok the .menu parser is finished now, next thing is to make the parsers for the different wm's, and agree on a specific .menu file and create icons for the different categories.

Here my proposal for the menu structure:

Games
- Game
- AdventureGame
- ArcadeGame
- BlocksGame
- BoardGame
- CardGame
- FirstPersonGame
- LogicGame
- KidsGame
- PlatformGame
- PuzzleGame
- SportsGame
- StrategyGame

Development
- GUIDesigner
- IDE
- Debugger

Documentation

Education
- Math
- Astronomy
- Physics
- Chemistry
- Science
- Geologie
- MedicalSoftware
- Biologie

Graphics
- VectorGraphics
- RasterGraphics
- 3DGraphics
- Viewer

AudioVideo (Multimedia)
- DiskBurning
- Player
- Mixer
- AudioVideoEditing

Network
- WebBrowser
- InstantMessaging
- IRCClient
- Newsreader
- FileTransfer
- Mail
- RemoteAccess

Office
- Spreadsheet
- WodProcessor
- Presentation
- Calender
- Email
- ProjectManagement
- TODO
- TextEditor
- Finance
- Database
- Chart
- PDA

Settings
- SystemSetup
- PackageManager
- AdvancedSettings

System
- Monitor
- TerminalEmulator

Tools
- Amusement
- Accessibility
- Emulator
- HamRadio
- Applet
- TrayIcon
- Screensaver
- Clock
- Utilities
- FileManager
- Engineering
- Archiving
- Electronics
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zhenlin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice, but could we please have spaces in between the names?

Also, will empty menus (i.e. no children) be output or not?

By the way, Biology not Biologie.

I think the Mac OS X approach to categorizing Preferences is good.

Preferences >
Personal
Hardware
Internet & Network
System

If there are "Advanced Options" that shouldn't be tinkered with, why make them accessible?
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lanius
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zhenlin wrote:
Nice, but could we please have spaces in between the names?


sure, this are only the formal names, they also have to be translated ...

Quote:

Also, will empty menus (i.e. no children) be output or not?


i would prefer to not output them

Quote:

I think the Mac OS X approach to categorizing Preferences is good.

Preferences >
Personal
Hardware
Internet & Network
System

If there are "Advanced Options" that shouldn't be tinkered with, why make them accessible?


i tried to cover all categories specified by the .menu spec and added a few by myself:

http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/menu-spec/1.0-onehtml/#category-registry

This is a relative new standard, and especially the categories listing is not the best, so please comment on it to get them better ;)
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dantrevino
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:22 pm    Post subject: freedesktop.org Reply with quote

I guess my question is: why are you duplicating the effort of freedesktop.org? Why not just put the files into /usr/share/applications? *box, wm, etc, etc, should be encouraged to adopt the standard.

OR instead of adding to portage, why not work with gentoo developers to fix the ebuilds? For instance, openoffice ebuilds still have code like this:
Code:

einfo "Installing Menu shortcuts (need \"gnome\" or \"kde\" in USE)..."
if [ -n "`use gnome`" ]
then
  insinto /usr/share/gnome/apps/OpenOffice.org
  # Install the files needed for the catagory
  doins ${D}${INSTDIR}/share/gnome/net/.directory
  doins ${D}${INSTDIR}/share/gnome/net/.order
   ...


Where they should be inserting the .desktop files into /usr/share/applications regardless of KDE/GNOME installation.
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lanius
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are not duplicating any work!

The current implementations of gnome and kde does not support the .menu standard (but will in gnome 2.6 and kde 3.2 and that will be in 6-9 month, we will be faster), only the .desktop standard. Other wm's does not support them at all (icewm, *box). If you read the .menu standard you will know, why it is necessary.

[edit]
This openoffice .desktop files are missing the "Category" - Key which is *neaded*
[/edit]
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gregcoit
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2003 10:03 pm    Post subject: Great work! Reply with quote

I like the menu structure that heino created and I agree that empty menus should remain hidden.

Quote:
Ok the .menu parser is finished now, next thing is to make the parsers for the different wm's, and agree on a specific .menu file and create icons for the different categories.


What language would you like the wm parsers to be in, I assume python?

And as for icons, should we use the one provided by the applications themselves or the gentoo icon project icons?

Greg
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jstubbs
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heino's menu structure is quite intuitive. I tried reorganising (on 'paper') my current menu into that structure and have some problems:

1. KEduca is a test designer/executor and so is general education.
2. KTouch (touch typing tutor) doesn't fit anywhere.
3. KGhostview, KDVI and KFax are all viewer only applications. Need a new viewer category under office?
4. KFormula and OpenofficeMath don't fit anywhere. Need a category under office?
5. KOfficeShell doesn't fit anywhere as is to general. Same as number 1.
6. KNewsTicker doesn't fit anywhere.

and some suggestions:

1. There needs to be a Education -> Languages category.
2. Maybe Office -> DB should be moved to Development -> DB?
3. Perhaps there should be an Other category under each category - a place for any misfits?

And, of course, I also have some questions:

1. As for icons, I think the original icon should be used. However, has any thought been put into KDE's "system" icons? For example, konsole's icon is simply "konsole" and KDE looks at the current icon theme for the definition of the icon "konsole". Can that be supported in generic .desktop entries?

2. How will the Settings menus work? Will/should they include settings of the window manager? If so, will/should they include settings of other window managers?

3. Will KDE3.2 and Gnome2.6 reorganise their menu structures to fit the freedesktop standard?

4. Is anyone working on creating .desktop entries at the moment? I'm sure that it's more work (and less play :wink: ) than the menu creator and us "dumb" ones could be doing that while the "smart" ones are having all the fun.

5. An easy one: what's the difference between LogicGame, PuzzleGame and StrategyGame?

6. Another easy one: What is Games -> Game?

7. And one last easy one: What's the difference between Network -> Mail and Office -> Email?

Hmmm, that's all I can think of for the moment. Enough input? BTW, if you want to see the reorganisation that I did, let me know and I'll post it here or email it directly.

Jason
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zhenlin
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB... Database...

Goes under the "Information Services" category, along with "Word Processors", "Spreadsheet Applications", "Slideshow Managers", "Address Books", "Help" etc.

Entertainment
- Games (KTouch goes into here)
-- AdventureGame
-- ArcadeGame
-- BlocksGame
-- BoardGame
-- CardGame
-- FirstPersonGame
-- LogicGame
-- KidsGame
-- PlatformGame
-- PuzzleGame
-- SportsGame
-- StrategyGame
- ViewersPlayers
-- Music
-- Movies
-- Television
- Amusement


DataProduction
- SoftwareDevelopment
-- GUIDesigner
-- IDE
-- Debugger
- Graphics
-- VectorGraphics
-- RasterGraphics
-- 3DGraphics
- AudioVideo (Multimedia)
-- Mixer
-- AudioVideoEditing
- Documents
-- Typesetter (LyX etc.)
-- Spreadsheet
-- WordProcessor (Equation programs go in here or into Typesetter)
-- Presentation
-- TextEditor
-- Database
-- Chart

DataOrganiser (PDA non-sync components)
-- Calender
-- ProjectManagement
-- TODO

DataServices
- SystemDocumentation
- Education
-- NaturalLanguages (Esperanto goes here, though)
-- ArtificialLanguages
-- Arts
--- Architecture
-- Music
-- Math
--- AppliedMath
-- Science
--- Astronomy
--- Physics
--- Chemistry
--- Geology
--- Biology
---- Medicine
- ViewersPlayers
-- Graphics
-- Document (KGhostview, KDVI, KFax go here)
-- Audio
-- Video

Communications
- WebBrowser
- InstantMessaging
- IRCClient
- News (KTicker goes here or into DataServices)
- FileTransfer
- EMail
- RemoteAccess

Settings
- Personal
- Hardware
- Communications
- System
- SoftwareManagement
- VolumeControl

SystemTools
- Monitor

Tools
- Accessibility
- Emulator
- HamRadio
- Applet
- TrayIcon
- Screensaver
- Clock
- Utilities
- FileManager
- Engineering
- Archiving
- Electronics
- TerminalEmulator
- PDA (Sync component)
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gregcoit
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:20 am    Post subject: Ohh, ohh, ohh! Reply with quote

Quote:
4. Is anyone working on creating .desktop entries at the moment? I'm sure that it's more work (and less play ) than the menu creator and us "dumb" ones could be doing that while the "smart" ones are having all the fun.


I'd like to volunteer for this duty!
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lanius
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jason.stubbs wrote:
Heino's menu structure is quite intuitive. I tried reorganising (on 'paper') my current menu into that structure and have some problems:

1. KEduca is a test designer/executor and so is general education.
2. KTouch (touch typing tutor) doesn't fit anywhere.


General Edutcation as well

Quote:

3. KGhostview, KDVI and KFax are all viewer only applications. Need a new viewer category under office?

Should be viewers

Quote:

4. KFormula and OpenofficeMath don't fit anywhere. Need a category under office?

maybe

Quote:

5. KOfficeShell doesn't fit anywhere as is to general. Same as number 1.

yes

Quote:

6. KNewsTicker doesn't fit anywhere.


I renamed Network->Newsreader to Network-News


and some suggestions:

Quote:

1. There needs to be a Education -> Languages category.

added

Quote:

2. Maybe Office -> DB should be moved to Development -> DB?

It can appear under both, that's no problem

[quote]
3. Perhaps there should be an Other category under each category - a place for any misfits?
[quote]
good idea

And, of course, I also have some questions:

Quote:

1. As for icons, I think the original icon should be used. However, has any thought been put into KDE's "system" icons? For example, konsole's icon is simply "konsole" and KDE looks at the current icon theme for the definition of the icon "konsole". Can that be supported in generic .desktop entries?

I was only speaking about icons for the categories, not for the apps and there are no icons for the categories yet ;)

Quote:

2. How will the Settings menus work? Will/should they include settings of the window manager? If so, will/should they include settings of other window managers?


That is possible, there is a OnlyShowIn=WM key, that can be used for that.

[quote]
3. Will KDE3.2 and Gnome2.6 reorganise their menu structures to fit the freedesktop standard?
[quote]

They agree on the categories, how they order the categories in subcategories might be a bit different.

Quote:

4. Is anyone working on creating .desktop entries at the moment? I'm sure that it's more work (and less play :wink: ) than the menu creator and us "dumb" ones could be doing that while the "smart" ones are having all the fun.


i think this can still wait a bit.

Quote:

5. An easy one: what's the difference between LogicGame, PuzzleGame and StrategyGame?

no idea ;)

Quote:

6. Another easy one: What is Games -> Game?

just a typo ;)

Quote:

7. And one last easy one: What's the difference between Network -> Mail and Office -> Email?


There is no difference ;)

Quote:

Hmmm, that's all I can think of for the moment. Enough input? BTW, if you want to see the reorganisation that I did, let me know and I'll post it here or email it directly.


thx :)
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lanius
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Great work! Reply with quote

Quote:

What language would you like the wm parsers to be in, I assume python?


yes, but we have still to agree on a standard way to write them.

[quote]
And as for icons, should we use the one provided by the applications themselves or the gentoo icon project icons?
[quote]
see my comment in the post before that.

mfg, Heinrich :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zhenlin wrote:
DB... Database...

Goes under the "Information Services" category, along with "Word Processors", "Spreadsheet Applications", "Slideshow Managers", "Address Books", "Help" etc.

<snip>



Generally i think this categories are not very institutive, but i added some to my scheme.

mfg, Heinrich :)
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me see if a I catch it.

First, the structure of folders should be defined.
These structure (XML?) is filled every time a program that runs under X is emerged.
Then, a tool (made in python) should convert that 'structure' to a window-manager-readble file, and this is the part that I don't understand.

This file change for every single WM, so, the convert tool should make it for Gnome, or for WindowManager or Fluxbox?

Sorry, I can't understand all of what I read here, and I wanna help, but I need to fully undestand it :p
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2003 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I can't claim to completely understand it all either, but afaict you're mostly right. There's a lot of .desktop files, roughly one for each of the packages that are to be included in the menu and an XML file to define the menu itself.

As for WM support, it'll likely need a lot of different scripts, programmes and/or XSLT stylesheets to convert all the WM-independent stuff to the respective formats.

By the way, concerning the menu structure, I personally would prefer rather less categories with more applications per category. Someone who has got only seven multimedia apps installed shouldn't need a subcategory for each of them ;) So maybe some kind of algorithm is due that removes underpopulated submenus and stuffs their entries into the parent menu (recursively).
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Well, I can't claim to completely understand it all either, but afaict you're mostly right. There's a lot of .desktop files, roughly one for each of the packages that are to be included in the menu and an XML file to define the menu itself.

Not .desktop files but .menu files.

Quote:

By the way, concerning the menu structure, I personally would prefer rather less categories with more applications per category. Someone who has got only seven multimedia apps installed shouldn't need a subcategory for each of them So maybe some kind of algorithm is due that removes underpopulated submenus and stuffs their entries into the parent menu (recursively).

Here, I wholeheartedly agree. When I did a dummy menu using this structure, most of the categories under Network only had 1 item in them. Maybe have category items where number of menu items <= 1 (or a user configurable x) go into the parent menu?

Jason
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lanius
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cuerty wrote:
Let me see if a I catch it.

First, the structure of folders should be defined.
These structure (XML?) is filled every time a program that runs under X is emerged.
Then, a tool (made in python) should convert that 'structure' to a window-manager-readble file, and this is the part that I don't understand.

This file change for every single WM, so, the convert tool should make it for Gnome, or for WindowManager or Fluxbox?

Sorry, I can't understand all of what I read here, and I wanna help, but I need to fully undestand it :p


I'll try to explain the whole thing ...


There are many different Windowmanagers around, to name only a few icewm, *box, gnome, kde. The problem is that they all use their own format to create their menus. To solve this problems there is a defacto organisation, freedesktop.org. They defined two formats, the Desktop Entry Format (http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/desktop-entry-spec) to give information about a single program and the Menu Specification (http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/menu-spec) to give a order of menus. KDE and Gnome will switch to these formats in Version 3.2 and 2.6.. But it's a long way until then and some other window manager's won't support theses formats at all.

So the aim of this project is to create a parser for both specs and converters for the different wm's (that are based on the parsers). The parser is finished now, the converters aren't.

Quote:

Here, I wholeheartedly agree. When I did a dummy menu using this structure, most of the categories under Network only had 1 item in them. Maybe have category items where number of menu items <= 1 (or a user configurable x) go into the parent menu?


I will think about that, but here I have 3 or 4 Browsers, 3 Mail programs, 3 or 4 IM clients ...

mfg, Heinrich :)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We are now at the point to decide wether to use a bash script or a python script for the windowmanager files. Python scripts are 2 times as fast as the bash script and in my opinion would make live easier, but more people know how to write bash, here an example of both:

Python:
http://www.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/gentoo-menu/examples/fluxbox.py?rev=1.3&cvsroot=gentoo-src&content-type=text/plain

Bash:
http://www.gentoo.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/gentoo-menu/examples/fluxbox.wm?rev=1.3&cvsroot=gentoo-src&content-type=text/plain
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 9:16 pm    Post subject: My 2 cents Reply with quote

Ok, this is only worth 2 cents....

I am one of those that knows bash (and perl) but not python.

That said, I think I could write one of these up using your template as a guide. Seems to me that that most of the gentoo specific scripts are python - I'd say lets keep with that.

Either way Heino - thanks for all the work on this - I'm looking forward to having complete kde *and* gnome menu's without having to create them both...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with Greg. I don't really know Python - what I did above was my first attempt and now I've pretty much forgotten the small amount that I did learn! :oops:

BUT, I also agree with Greg in that Python is the way to go. However, a couple o' questions (yep, I ask lotsa questions):

1. Most of an app's windowmanager file will be static, no? That is to say, comparing the windowmaker file for giFTcurs and Quake3, for example, 90% of the code will be identical, right?

2. If I am right in my assumption of #1, has any final decision been made about using an XML format for the menu entries? It seems that if it mostly static, it would be best to separate the changing from the unchanging. Furthermore, if the unchanging needs to be changed, it only needs to be changed once - that's object-oriented! But you already knew that, as you've got that lovely word "class" there in your Python version. :wink:

Either way, it's getting closer to completion and that's a Good Thing (TM). Even if you're going for a non-XML standard, most of the "users" are programmers (or at least scripters :lol: ) so a bit of Python code shouldn't be too scary. Who knows, having it all together might even be useful - maybe some necessary hacks for certain applications?

Great work!

Jason
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I dont know a thing about coding (which will probably become VERY obvious after you read this :P). I can't really figure out the way the program in this thread will work. Is the idea something like this:

1. the program has a database with all the programs which are in portage and could use a place in the menu. The database contains the location of where the entry for each program should be in the menu etc..

2. when this program is run, it checks which programs in the database are actually installed, and dont have a menu entry yet. Then this entry gets added in the menu?
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No it works different ;)

To explain it very simple: The program has a database, every program that is installed will install a database entry. Then the menus are created out of this database.
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