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ThinkBayon
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see why Sabayon can't be considered very close to Gentoo. It has Gentoo bloodlines, uses the same tools, etc. Ubuntu is pretty much Debian: I can go to the Debian forums, never tell them I'm running Ubuntu, and their support will work fine. The same goes for Slackware and Vector, and in many ways, Zenwalk too (besides netpkg).

In the end, I don't see how it can hurt to provide support for Sabayon users. On one hand, they will experience exotic problems due to the configuration of our systems, but still we are Linux users and Gentoo users, and it would really stink if brash support treatment and comments chased some of us back to the world of Ubuntu, Macs, or even *gasp* Windows.

Then again, I'm not part of this community and most of my experience is with Debian and Zenwalk. I'm also biased by being a Sabayon user at present. But when I was using Debian, I would never hesitate to provide forum support to my "little brother" Ubuntu users.

At the end of the day, it feels good to help out.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not that complex.

They forked. It's all about standing up and taking responsibility.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThinkBayon wrote:
I don't see why Sabayon can't be considered very close to Gentoo. It has Gentoo bloodlines, uses the same tools, etc. Ubuntu is pretty much Debian: I can go to the Debian forums, never tell them I'm running Ubuntu, and their support will work fine. The same goes for Slackware and Vector, and in many ways, Zenwalk too (besides netpkg).

In the end, I don't see how it can hurt to provide support for Sabayon users. On one hand, they will experience exotic problems due to the configuration of our systems, but still we are Linux users and Gentoo users, and it would really stink if brash support treatment and comments chased some of us back to the world of Ubuntu, Macs, or even *gasp* Windows.

Then again, I'm not part of this community and most of my experience is with Debian and Zenwalk. I'm also biased by being a Sabayon user at present. But when I was using Debian, I would never hesitate to provide forum support to my "little brother" Ubuntu users.

At the end of the day, it feels good to help out.

Sabayon is considered 'close' to Gentoo, but not necessarily 'very close' (atleast in my view). The reason for this is because Sabayon uses its own versions of some pretty major packages (browsing through their overlay, I see packages like grub, xorg-x11 and xorg-server to name just a few).

The problem is not that we (the Gentoo community) don't want to provide official support, it's that we can't (beyond a certain point). Sabayon provides its own version of many packages and these seem to (sometimes) lag behind the official Gentoo tree. A case in example: The other day someone came into #gentoo complaining that nvidia-drivers wouldn't install with glibc-2.6. Glibc-2.6 no longer includes the nptl and nptl-only USE flags, but the Sabayon package was still looking for them. There's nothing the Gentoo developers can do about this - it would require commit access to Sabayon's overlay. There's nothing much most users can do about this - The only suggestion I could make was "ask in #sabayon or use the package from the official tree".

This is a simple, obvious example of a change that caused problems. There could easily be many much more subtle problems that break systems in a much more subtle way. Most people in #gentoo will happily provide support for Sabayon users, but if it becomes suspect that the problem lies in using Sabayons packages, then there's frankly nothing we can do as we don't know how Sabayon's packages differ, with most of us being Gentoo users, not Sabayon users.

As for providing official support on Bugzilla, a Sabayon users first point of call must be the Sabayon developers (via their Bugzilla). If the Sabayon developers then determine that the problem lies in Gentoo's tree, they should report it to the Gentoo developers (via Gentoo's Bugzilla). This is the same way things work with Gentoo vs upstream. Users report bugs on Gentoo's Bugzilla, if the developers determine that the problem lies with the program itself, the problem will then be reported to the packages developers (AKA upstream). There's a hierarchy of responsability here, the model of which is generally followed throughout the open source world. (To take the hierarchy further, the packages developers may determine that the problem lies with a library that they use, in which case they may report the bug to the library's developers (further upstream)).

There are two seperate questions here, with seperate answers:
1) Can Gentoo's developers provide official support for Sabayon. The answer is no - Sabayon users should report problems to Sabayon's developers, who will then report the problem upstream if necessary.
2) Can Gentoo's community provide unofficial support for Sabayon. The answer is yes - up until the problem is determined to be (possibly) Sabayon specific - and it does.

To translate this on to the Debian vs Ubuntu example: If an Ubuntu user asks for help in #debian, they'll get it, but if the Debian community determines the problem is possibly Ubuntu specific, they'll tell the user to go back to the Ubuntu community as there's nothing they can do. If an Ubuntu user reports a problem to Debians bugzilla, the Debian devs will tell them to go talk to the Ubuntu devs because there's nothing they can do - they have no influence over the Ubuntu packages.

Beso:
Gentoo doesn't have kicker, an essential part of KDE in it's repository. Right... This is exactly the problem... it does, and the differences may cause bugs that manifest themselves outside of Kicker in subtle ways. The Gentoo developers have looked at the differences between the repositories, and they aren't closed minded, but they haven't got the time to run through every problem from Sabayon users to determine themselves if it's a problem with Gentoo or Sabayon. There is a chain of responsability here and for Sabayon users it starts with the Sabayon developers, just as with Ubuntu users it starts with the Ubuntu developers.

In summary:

  • Sabayon is NOT Gentoo. Sabayon is CLOSE TO Gentoo.
  • The Gentoo community does provide unofficial support for Sabayon users.
  • Sabayon users should report problems to Sabayons developers, who will then report the problem upstream (which may or may not be the Gentoo developers) if necessary.
  • If it's a Sabayon specific problem, then only people who know Sabayon (ie. the Sabayon community) are going to be able to help solve it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AllenJB wrote:
[...]

That is an excellent summary of the situation; well put.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major difference to me seems that sabayon uses by default a kernel not optimised to the hardware (so a lot of modules included) and compiles the packages with loads of use flags. Nothing against it. It is a matter of choice. I have compared speed between sabayon and gentoo and see a significant difference.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my first post to this forum, but the topic is relevant to one of the reasons I actually started using Gentoo as my primary OS. I thought I'd risk potentially stating things that create tensions between myself and others on such grounds.

My view of the debate here is that there are the immediately apparent aspects like whether Sabayon is Gentoo and whether they should receive official support or use the bugzilla, et cetera. My opinions here are that Sabayon is a related and commesurable system, but that they are different, even if in principle alone as having different designs goals, aims and so on is enough for them to be different. They shouldn't, I believe, use the bugzilla as they have their own and there is no doubts that they shouldn't receive official support as that is the developers' choice alone (and its a choice they made based on good grounds). I think, however, that others have argued this well already (AllenJB, for example) and anything I could say further on that point would be trite.

I also like Sabayon as a liveCD and used it to install my current Gentoo system and my desktop design, colour scheme and background are influenced heavily by theirs (actually, the background is based on theirs with the Gentoo symbol and name replacing the Sabayon one). I dislike Sabayon's install method, but that's because I like as much control as I can get when installing my OS. However, I won't simply lay down negative rhetorical points about Sabayon because I see countless positive reviews and it is credited widely with producing some innovative things (I am considering dipping into their overlay myself and am following reports of the Entropy project with interest). The fact is, a lot of people out there really like Sabayon and I won't begrudge them that. It is evidently working for a lot of people.

There appears to be bad blood between the communities that is needless. Each side (consisting of a small group of users) accuses the other of lying (Gentoo's side being that of accusing lxnay of encouraging Sabayon users to lie, Sabayon's being that of accusing Nightmorph and others of deliberating lying out of envy and spite). Initially, my sympathies lay somewhat with the Sabayon users, for various reasons. However, trying to take a more objective and neutral stance, neither side has offered any concrete evidence to support the claims of lying, all that I have seen from either side has been rhetorical. The only sane response, as far as I see it, is that both accusations must be dismissed on the grounds that there are vast amounts of probable doubt to each.

I can't see how either side of this whole Gentoo v. Sabayon disaster can realistically prove their point. Further, to merely reassert one of those sides' beliefs to me, especially in a rhetorical way (such as adding 'point' to the end of each assertion) is to miss the essence of my point. I am not asking for proof (and I doubt there'll be any). What I see as more important is that an opportunity to work together for the benefit of both Gentoo and Sabayon (as well as others) is being missed here and in a time where I increasingly hear Linux criticisms based on the increasing number of distributions and their incommesurability, I feel that losing this opportunity is tragic. Even if that opportunity is never taken up, maintaining good relations are beneficial for their own sake.

Not intended as, or interested in, a flamewar (and will not be a part of them); just rational debate on an apparent problem.

Be well,
Rob.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millzee wrote:
There appears to be bad blood between the communities that is needless. Each side (consisting of a small group of users) accuses the other of lying (Gentoo's side being that of accusing lxnay of encouraging Sabayon users to lie, Sabayon's being that of accusing Nightmorph and others of deliberating lying out of envy and spite). Initially, my sympathies lay somewhat with the Sabayon users, for various reasons. However, trying to take a more objective and neutral stance, neither side has offered any concrete evidence to support the claims of lying, all that I have seen from either side has been rhetorical. The only sane response, as far as I see it, is that both accusations must be dismissed on the grounds that there are vast amounts of probable doubt to each.

Well, I got tired of producing evidence for everyone that asked. Feel free to ignore what we say and chalk it up as anecdotal or whatever. It doesn't matter to me any. However, Fabio, on several occasions, would tell his users to lie to us.

Ever wondered why Sabayon switched to their own installer from the Gentoo Linux Installer and why Fabio uses every chance he gets to bash the GLI team and Release Engineering? It's because we banned him from our channels for outright lying. When we would expose him in one of his lies, he would either lie more or leave the channel to keep from discussing it. All in all, the biggest failure for sabayon is Fabio himself. So long as he is the primary driving force behind Sabayon, it won't ever be received well, much like how Paludis is disliked due to Ciaran McCreesh's heavy involvement with that project. Gentoo is a meritocracy. You have to earn your respect. When you spend your days lying, insulting, or otherwise pissing off your peers, you're not going to make it very far. What Fabio has earned is not respect, it is disdain. Also, his inclusion of items which are illegal to redistribute in the United States gives Gentoo, a US-based entity, no choice but to refuse to have any association with Sabayon, which is knowingly and willingly breaking US copyright law.

I know that I have exactly zero interest in having anything to do with Sabayon. When they report bugs, I fix them. Otherwise, they could fall off of the face of the planet today and it wouldn't affect us in any way. Sabayon is a consumer. They are not a member of our community. They consume Gentoo resources and provide minimal feedback. Dealing with their chief developers is a chore, at best, and a complete nightmare, at worst. Until this situation changes, Sabayon is best where it is... as far away from Gentoo as we can get it.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wolf31o2 wrote:
Sabayon is a consumer. They are not a member of our community. They consume Gentoo resources and provide minimal feedback.

Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out. That's not how successful derivatives/forks work, at least, none that I've seen. They all actually contribute back to the distributions from which they were born.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out. That's not how successful derivatives/forks work, at least, none that I've seen. They all actually contribute back to the distributions from which they were born.
Interesting, exactly which X server software do you use?

Note that I am in no way claiming parity of circumstance nor that Sabayon should somehow be officially supported in all things by Gentoo resources, simply that overly broad claims have been made.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 5:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
nightmorph wrote:
Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out. That's not how successful derivatives/forks work, at least, none that I've seen. They all actually contribute back to the distributions from which they were born.
Interesting, exactly which X server software do you use?

Note that I am in no way claiming parity of circumstance nor that Sabayon should somehow be officially supported in all things by Gentoo resources, simply that overly broad claims have been made.

Touche. Sorta.

I don't know that they're overly broad claims. I've yet to see anything contributed back to Gentoo from Sabayon. Now, that may be because of a lack of developers or a lack of time or just plain lack of interest on their part (or even on our part), but I do know that I've never, not once, heard any of my fellow developers mention that anyone from Sabayon had contributed anything toward Gentoo. Nor, indeed, that any Gentoo-based distribution has yet contributed anything to Gentoo, though on that point, I will say that it's possible some of the older ones did once upon a time, but are no longer active/dormant, so I may just have missed it.

To be fair, it's plausible that someone has uncovered a genuine Gentoo bug while using Sabayon and reported it on our bugzilla, or that their developers passed it on to Gentoo developers, but I've not heard of this happening, nor can I find anything on our own bugzilla ... and I like to think that I try to keep abreast of all such interesting developments among my fellow developers.

Again, it's possible that I just haven't heard of them contributing to Gentoo. That's plausible. I've no interest in making blanket statements that they never have; I just haven't seen them do so yet. Regarding an earlier statement by Millzee, I've nothing to gain by lying about what they have and haven't done, or to assume that I've seen it all and know for sure that they have or haven't done something. Actually, it would probably beneficial if the two developer groups were able to work together for some mutual good. Something that would serve both distributions' interest. But, I haven't seen Sabayon do anything besides take without contributing back. And you know, according to the GPL, that's all free and legal. Hey, you can do what you want with the code; you can slice and dice it and never make the effort to do something for those who wrote the code in the first place.

That might not always be the best development or community model, though.

I've started to directly ask my fellow developers about their experiences with derivative distributions. It's something that I feel is important to know -- where do we stand?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wolf31o2 wrote:
Well, I got tired of producing evidence for everyone that asked. Feel free to ignore what we say and chalk it up as anecdotal or whatever. It doesn't matter to me any. However, Fabio, on several occasions, would tell his users to lie to us.


I did not quite expect this topic to be revived when I last saw it, but your comment was interesting. The ultimate problem I have with the whole debate is this constant re-asserting of a lie. So you say, and continue to do so, that he lies and there are members of the Sabayon community who do likewise of the developers here. The fact still remains that from a neutral perspective, there's nothing to choose; I believe I premised my original post on the topic as such. I am simply not interested in condemning anyone unless some concrete reasons emerge.

You say there is evidence and that it is too bothersome to continually reproduce. Well, there may be and I won't dispute that and if you have it, you have justifable reason to condemn Fabio. I'm not asking for that evidence; all I'm asking, all I'm saying, is that I will not condemn without it (which is a fair statement). Though, if this issue got so tiresome to me (though, really I find it interesting, even if it does have something of a conclusion already) I would simply cease to debate it at all (which makes me wonder why you do). I have seen attempts at producing evidence so far on this thread, which haven't really proved the point they were aimed at making (again, I believe I made that evident in my first post).

This does have a knock on effect upon the second paragraph of what you say, because the premise of so much of it is something that I, as you say, "chalk up as anecdotal". I assume, from the start, that your claim that Sabayon will never be well received is either restricted to the Gentoo community, though opinions seem somewhat more mixed or the Gentoo developers themselves. Sabayon is, after all, well received in the greater Linux community (which is part of the premise of their counter claims, alongside the rather cool reception to Gentoo). Now, the difference I have between Fabio and Ciaran is that the accusations against Ciaran are things I have seen, myself, to be true via his own emails and actions, I have no such readily available data for Fabio. The dismissal of Paludis as a project because of Ciaran (or Sabayon due to Fabio) is a different philosophical kettle of fish altogether and I'll leave that aside; but I can't see more than needless bad blood and your post only really affirms, rather than engages with, the fundamental problem I have with all this bad blood.

That aside, since I'm not really interested in discussing the issue of lying anymore since it's going nowhere, the issue of copyright does present a problem. I'm afraid I lacked awareness of the nature of US copyright law beyond the illegality of Sabayon's distribution there. If your laws require all legal disassociation then Gentoo's disassociation is justified on those grounds alone. However, association is a seperate issue from the bad blood. As far as I'm aware, Sabayon doesn't break any US copyright laws because it is not subject to them, it is subject to EU copyright laws. I realize that they put a warning to those subject to US copyright laws on their webpage. They do have American servers, but since one of these servers is Virginia Tech, I trust them to have responsibility and awareness of their own copyright laws as an institute of learning to be within the law and if that presents a problem, the problem will be between Virginia Tech and the US authorities, not Sabayon (unless it has legal operations in the States).

The Sabayon consumer issue is also very complex. It is the case that I can use Sabayon's overlay, at least as long as it remains Gentoo-compatible. The Entropy project, once it's available might represent a change in all that. I understand there is talk of completely moving from Gentoo (which would remove the consumer issue entirely). However, the lack of development, code sending and so on is difficult to remove from the issue of bad blood. They are unlikely to do so now as the bad blood is irrepairably there, whether they would have if relations were better may be a moot point. Of course, they are also, as you say, a chore. Well, if they are difficult individuals then that's perfectly good reason to have problems with them as individuals if one is a developer, but I cannot comment on that at all, really.

I feel I have adequately explained my position in light of what you said. I welcome any constructive response, since I am interesting in getting to the truth of matter. Remember, however, that until I have reasons to condemn anyone, I won't and that includes you as much as them.

Be well.

EDIT:
nightmorph wrote:
Regarding an earlier statement by Millzee, I've nothing to gain by lying about what they have and haven't done, or to assume that I've seen it all and know for sure that they have or haven't done something. Actually, it would probably beneficial if the two developer groups were able to work together for some mutual good. Something that would serve both distributions' interest.


Rather than reply in a new text, I thought I'd edit this into my post. My initial comment was not so much about motivation, but the accusation. I'm not, in any way, condemning Gentoo because, obviously, I think it is the superior OS (at least, for my needs). However, I was stating that, from a neutral perspective, there's no real headway to this fallout. Their position, from what I summarised on their forums, was not that Gentoo developers had anything to gain per se, but that it was out of a sense of resentment towards Sabayon's success in the greater Linux community. Obviously, I don't believe Sabayon's counterclaims (or, even, the greater Linux community's) about Gentoo being a "dying" OS. That is silly, even Robbins, whom DW often quotes for an "anti-Gentoo" position, said he thought Gentoo has an exciting period ahead of it.

Be well.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

freelight wrote:
Ubuntu is still Debian on training wheels. All they did was offer a simplified installer and their own repository, really, just like Sabayon did with Gentoo. The difference is that Ubuntu supports their own user base and doesn't tell them to ask Debian for support.

Ubuntu is a lot more than Debian on training wheels... Ubuntu has pioneered things like Launchpad.net and decent/enforced release cycles, among many other notable contributions to the open source desktop world.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not true they didn't contributed to Gentoo, at least in early days of Sabayon. I remember of a bug report about ltmodem (see bug 148524) in which Fabio provided a patch for making it compatible with the new version of kernel. Also, searching in Bugzilla after bugs reported by Fabio would reveal 32 bugs.

It is sad we've come to this. I don't know who is to blame, but most probably both parties are.

I've always considered Sabayon of being a desktop oriented binary package repository. If they decide to switch to another base distribution, both distros will have only to loose.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
nightmorph wrote:
Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out. That's not how successful derivatives/forks work, at least, none that I've seen. They all actually contribute back to the distributions from which they were born.
Interesting, exactly which X server software do you use?

I appreciate that NightMorph seemed to understand this point, but I still don't (after 3 readings.) Whether it's Xfree or Xorg is irrelevant to me (not saying that's your point, mind.) What is relevant is whether Gentoo provides useful feedback to upstream, which I believe it does. I'd go so far as to say I believe Gentoo provides better feedback than anyone else, since it tests source in much wider circumstances than a binary distro does.
Millzee wrote:
Though, if this issue got so tiresome to me (though, really I find it interesting, even if it does have something of a conclusion already) I would simply cease to debate it at all (which makes me wonder why you do).

I'm not getting into the whole evidential thing as I don't have any for a start and I don't particularly care either way in terms of condemning anyone. (I have met lxnay online and he was fine with me, but that doesn't tell me anything about his behaviour on other occasions, nor do I even know if that was Fabio, just someone who said he's a sabayon dev and seemed angry at the accusation that Sabayon had told others to lie.) I found your second parenthesis (quoted) interesting though; why shouldn't a Gentoo dev who has experience of the situation being discussed by users, give his side? At least he cares enough to post.
Quote:
I assume, from the start, that your claim that Sabayon will never be well received is either restricted to the Gentoo community, though opinions seem somewhat more mixed or the Gentoo developers themselves.

Do they? Interesting that none of them have posted (and believe me they do not much go for kowtowing to authority figures ;) wolf may have a lot of respect within that community, but he's earnt it for one, and he didn't post til pretty late on.
Quote:
Sabayon is, after all, well received in the greater Linux community (which is part of the premise of their counter claims, alongside the rather cool reception to Gentoo).

What counter claim is based on their popularity with others? Oh you mean that Gentoo is jealous? Heh, ok. I don't buy that for a second; although I can well believe it must be annoying to Gentoo devs, I don't think that is a reasonable counter-argument; why not counter with how much you contribute (the substantive matter) rather than taking it to an emotive level? I think there have been other distros based on Gentoo that have done well before: fame is a fickle mistress. The difference here is that Sabayon is effectively a fork of Gentoo. I call it a leech because it takes from the Gentoo community (who do you think provides support?) and gives nothing back.
Quote:
Now, the difference I have between Fabio and Ciaran is that the accusations against Ciaran are things I have seen, myself, to be true via his own emails and actions, I have no such readily available data for Fabio. The dismissal of Paludis as a project because of Ciaran (or Sabayon due to Fabio) is a different philosophical kettle of fish altogether and I'll leave that aside; but I can't see more than needless bad blood and your post only really affirms, rather than engages with, the fundamental problem I have with all this bad blood.

It's a different kettle of fish to you, it clearly isn't to others. It is to me too, for the same reasons as you btw. I have similar concerns, I think, although you haven't actually stated what the "fundamental problem" is, only discussed in a rather legalistic (`careful' then ;) manner about condemnation.
Quote:
The Sabayon consumer issue is also very complex. It is the case that I can use Sabayon's overlay, at least as long as it remains Gentoo-compatible. The Entropy project, once it's available might represent a change in all that. I understand there is talk of completely moving from Gentoo (which would remove the consumer issue entirely).

Maybe, although somehow I doubt it, unless Sabayon are planning not to use ebuilds anymore. If they are, fine, but where did they draw their work from for all the previous time? Besides, that's based on whenever entropy comes, and "talk" about possibly "moving from Gentoo" at some undefined point.
Your choice of words is interesting: can you see how that affirms my point that they are leeching from Gentoo?
Quote:
However, the lack of development, code sending and so on is difficult to remove from the issue of bad blood.

Well if there is one, perhaps it's a contributory factor to the bad blood? lxnay told me he finds 2 or 3 ebuild bugs a day (something about the overlay really only being a bug-fixed tree) but he was rather coy about whether those bug fixes were sent upstream (ie to Gentoo.) Frankly I lost interest at that point, although before he left, I did tell him I thought he shouldn't be competing with Gentoo (his choice of word) but collaborating.
Quote:
I feel I have adequately explained my position in light of what you said. I welcome any constructive response, since I am interesting in getting to the truth of matter. Remember, however, that until I have reasons to condemn anyone, I won't and that includes you as much as them.

To be totally frank, I don't think anyone is really that bothered about your final verdict on the matter. Not meant offensively, only that, as has often been pointed out to me, devs are doing this voluntarily. So if one user (or many) doesn't want to take their word for it, they're not really going to lose any sleep. They might feel peeved, but that's human nature; wouldn't you? (In the hypothetical situation for you of course.)

On the wider issue, I feel the same as many others (including yourself, I think.) I'd like lxnay simply to contribute back to Gentoo, as a dev. They have certainly dealt with, and continue to have, devs who are not socially well-adjusted. Stuff that happened when he left (whenever the hell that was ;) is in the past. I have a feeling overlays were not so well-considered then, if they even existed, whereas now many herds have their own overlays to test stuff with interested users (eg haskell and lisp overlays.) It may well be that there simply wasn't the technical infrastructure in place for him to do what he wanted easily (and no wolf, catalyst doesn't count as easy in my book ;) Personal feelings aside, the two projects would be much stronger together than apart. Just imagine how much faster everything would go if all those bug-fixes were actually coming back into Gentoo, and if lxnay (and Fabio et al) had the support to concentrate on his coding rather than having to run a distro as well.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
I appreciate that NightMorph seemed to understand this point, but I still don't (after 3 readings.) Whether it's Xfree or Xorg is irrelevant to me (not saying that's your point, mind.)
It is relevant to my point, you will understand my point immediately once you understand how.
steveL wrote:
What is relevant is whether Gentoo provides useful feedback to upstream, which I believe it does. I'd go so far as to say I believe Gentoo provides better feedback than anyone else, since it tests source in much wider circumstances than a binary distro does.
My comment was not necessarily limited to the context of this topic.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabayon it's gentoo with a lot of software than never used :lol:
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

desultory wrote:
steveL wrote:
I appreciate that NightMorph seemed to understand this point, but I still don't (after 3 readings.) Whether it's Xfree or Xorg is irrelevant to me (not saying that's your point, mind.)
It is relevant to my point, you will understand my point immediately once you understand how.
steveL wrote:
What is relevant is whether Gentoo provides useful feedback to upstream, which I believe it does. I'd go so far as to say I believe Gentoo provides better feedback than anyone else, since it tests source in much wider circumstances than a binary distro does.
My comment was not necessarily limited to the context of this topic.

Blimey that took me ages to work out! I nearly finished a PM to you saying how confusing I was finding it (I hope i have understood it, or I am going to be feeling very foolish when i next login ;)
You mean that the xorg server was the young upstart from a close-minded set of devs? If so, I don't think that applies, as the Gentoo devs are not close-minded, and are not restricting what anyone else can do. The very fact that Sabayon has gone on so long blatantly in direct competition while actually using the resources of the parent, is indicative of that, IMO.
Further I truly believe that most Gentoo devs feel that users are important, and thus enough of an outcry from their users about something will lead to a change of mind. (They might grumble about it, but honestly it's more like kids grumbling about their parents than anything nasty, usually.) Sabayon is not that important to the majority of Gentoo users, so I don't see a mass exodus of users, drobbins notwithstanding (after all he's been hanging out in #gentoo-portage recently.) I wish it were brought in-house as I stated, since it would make development of both Gentoo proper and the Sabayon overlay move a lot quicker. For Gentoo there's bugfixes, for Sabayon development support, and for both there's a cessation of hostilities and all the negativity (read lost dev time, quite apart from the stress of dealing with it.)

Edit: Within the context of Free software, my point is the same: it's how well the teams interact which helps each other. (Collaboration is all.)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SteveL wrote:
why shouldn't a Gentoo dev who has experience of the situation being discussed by users, give his side? At least he cares enough to post.


I think the premise of my response here is that it is anyone's right to take an interest or not in a given topic of discourse. I was curious, given a claim of indifference to the presentation of evidence, why he posted anything at all.

Quote:
Do they? Interesting that none of them have posted (and believe me they do not much go for kowtowing to authority figures ;) wolf may have a lot of respect within that community, but he's earnt it for one, and he didn't post til pretty late on.


Well, he claims that Sabayon will not be popular amongst a certain group, so I was effectively trying to clarify to which group he was referring. The 'do they?' is directed towards the wrong person really, as it was his claim. I think you have misread my post in several further points, too. As to Wolf's level of respect, that wasn't on the table at all; at least, I never questioned it.

Quote:
What counter claim is based on their popularity with others? Oh you mean that Gentoo is jealous? Heh, ok. I don't buy that for a second; although I can well believe it must be annoying to Gentoo devs,


Me neither, though you seem to have misintepreted that as my claim, I am specifically not taking sides. Yet, I am taking it it as a serious accusation, because the Sabayon lot seem to.

Quote:
why not counter with how much you contribute (the substantive matter) rather than taking it to an emotive level?


Which emotional level would this be? This is especially confusing given your later noting my "legalistic" style of debate (by which I take to mean my analytic form of writing). I will take this up further at the end.

Quote:
It's a different kettle of fish to you, it clearly isn't to others. It is to me too, for the same reasons as you btw. I have similar concerns, I think, although you haven't actually stated what the "fundamental problem" is, only discussed in a rather legalistic (`careful' then ;) manner about condemnation.


The fundamental problem of my first post is that there is bad blood, that is is very tragic and that, really, neither side are making any headway in proving their point. I didn't restate it all there, because it was all in the first post to which he responded.

As to the "kettle of fish" point, it is a different kettle of fish. It is inasmuch as any outcome in the debate between whether a certain project should be viewed negatively (or positively) based upon those contributing will not affect the issues I brought up in my first point as, for them to do so, it presupposes evidence for one side or the other, which is a central element to my problem (referring to my first post again). I think, again, you seem to misinterpret that point, confusing whether it has any relevant meaning or interest for anyone (which is undeniably subjective and I would not challenge that) with whether it has any relevance to my initial claims (which can't be subjective, because it's about the relations of premises to a conclusion).

Quote:
Maybe, although somehow I doubt it, unless Sabayon are planning not to use ebuilds anymore. If they are, fine, but where did they draw their work from for all the previous time? Besides, that's based on whenever entropy comes, and "talk" about possibly "moving from Gentoo" at some undefined point.


I am uncertain as to what the actual technical details of such contain, since it is so far just talk, but it seems rather definitive. The most definite statement for forking I've seen is in Fabio's blog (dated 2007-07-28, here). I concede I might be misinterpreting his statement here, but it seems pretty clear.

Quote:
Your choice of words is interesting: can you see how that affirms my point that they are leeching from Gentoo?


If I am interpreting what you mean by "but where did they draw their work from for all the previous time?" correctly, I see your argument. However, I might not be, I concede. If I am correct, you would be saying that even if they fork away using Entropy, they have been using Gentoo resources from creation until that fork, which is a fair point. The only response I could offer is, given there are other Gentoo-based distributions especially, would this use of portage be a problem unless there was bad blood for other reasons to begin with?

Quote:
Well if there is one, perhaps it's a contributory factor to the bad blood?


Undoubtedly, I won't argue with that. It's still difficult to get a clear shot at what's going on here, though.

This last bit is effectively aside from the Gentoo/Sabayon debate:

Quote:
To be totally frank, I don't think anyone is really that bothered about your final verdict on the matter. Not meant offensively, only that, as has often been pointed out to me, devs are doing this voluntarily. So if one user (or many) doesn't want to take their word for it, they're not really going to lose any sleep.


Of course they are not, it would be very disheartening if they did as their work as devs is wholly removed from this debate. However, you seem to be putting intentions in my posts that are not there. I wrote my original post in the spirit of debate, I do not intend to insult anyone (and takes steps not to, thus my careful style such as saying "I think you misintepret" rather than "you misintepret" for example), I do not intend to force my opinions down anyone's throat, I didn't even expect a reply after it (since that would have been the realistic expectation if no one were bothered), I did not expect any of the devs to engage with my points (but am pleased some of them took anything of an interest, or appeared to), I'm not challenging any of them as devs or criticizing them as such, I do not expect them to present me with any evidence and will not challenge their claim to having it (but do not use what I do not have) and I will not feel any resentment towards anyone who disagrees (in fact, would respect a well presented, thought out argument regardless of my evaluation of its truth value). What is wrong with any of that? Part of the reason I came to Gentoo was the fact that debates seemed more varied and frequent here than in my previous distribution. Have I made a mistake there? I would hope not. I do not present opinions with the "defence" that they are merely opinions, but am willing to back them up with arguments (thus my analytic style).

What I would say here is that I have only seen the opinions of a few devs, if the entire dev community (or a sizable portion of it) were to condemn Fabio then it would be the words of a large number against a few, which would smash any reasonable doubt of who is in the right. But I don't want to be interpreted as asking that just for my own curiosity, either.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
You mean that the xorg server was the young upstart from a close-minded set of devs?
It was a counterexample, not an analogy. Not every successful forked or derived project collaborates with the project from which it split.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Millzee wrote:
SteveL wrote:
why shouldn't a Gentoo dev who has experience of the situation being discussed by users, give his side? At least he cares enough to post.

I think the premise of my response here is that it is anyone's right to take an interest or not in a given topic of discourse. I was curious, given a claim of indifference to the presentation of evidence, why he posted anything at all.

Well it sounded odd is all; he posts because users are discussing it and to give his perspective. And like I said, it's not really about evidence or condemnation.
Quote:
Quote:
Do they? Interesting that none of them have posted (and believe me they do not much go for kowtowing to authority figures ;) wolf may have a lot of respect within that community, but he's earnt it for one, and he didn't post til pretty late on.


Well, he claims that Sabayon will not be popular amongst a certain group, so I was effectively trying to clarify to which group he was referring. The 'do they?' is directed towards the wrong person really, as it was his claim. I think you have misread my post in several further points, too. As to Wolf's level of respect, that wasn't on the table at all; at least, I never questioned it.

No it was directed at the right person since i was querying: "though opinions seem somewhat more mixed or the Gentoo developers themselves." On what basis do you make that assertion?
Quote:
Quote:
What counter claim is based on their popularity with others? Oh you mean that Gentoo is jealous? Heh, ok. I don't buy that for a second; although I can well believe it must be annoying to Gentoo devs,


Me neither, though you seem to have misintepreted that as my claim, I am specifically not taking sides. Yet, I am taking it it as a serious accusation, because the Sabayon lot seem to.

No I merely asked which counter claim it was, as you referred to one. I never said you made it.
Quote:
Quote:
why not counter with how much you contribute (the substantive matter) rather than taking it to an emotive level?


Which emotional level would this be? This is especially confusing given your later noting my "legalistic" style of debate (by which I take to mean my analytic form of writing). I will take this up further at the end.

The emotive level meaning the claim that complaints of non-contribution are actually about jealousy.
Quote:
Quote:
It's a different kettle of fish to you, it clearly isn't to others. It is to me too, for the same reasons as you btw. I have similar concerns, I think, although you haven't actually stated what the "fundamental problem" is, only discussed in a rather legalistic (`careful' then ;) manner about condemnation.


The fundamental problem of my first post is that there is bad blood, that is is very tragic and that, really, neither side are making any headway in proving their point. I didn't restate it all there, because it was all in the first post to which he responded.

As to the "kettle of fish" point, it is a different kettle of fish. It is inasmuch as any outcome in the debate between whether a certain project should be viewed negatively (or positively) based upon those contributing will not affect the issues I brought up in my first point as, for them to do so, it presupposes evidence for one side or the other, which is a central element to my problem (referring to my first post again). I think, again, you seem to misinterpret that point, confusing whether it has any relevant meaning or interest for anyone (which is undeniably subjective and I would not challenge that) with whether it has any relevance to my initial claims (which can't be subjective, because it's about the relations of premises to a conclusion).

I am sorry I must be tired, I can't parse that and get any actual meaning out of it. Can you dumb it down? (Preferably in one or two short sentences.)
Quote:
Quote:
Maybe, although somehow I doubt it, unless Sabayon are planning not to use ebuilds anymore. If they are, fine, but where did they draw their work from for all the previous time? Besides, that's based on whenever entropy comes, and "talk" about possibly "moving from Gentoo" at some undefined point.


I am uncertain as to what the actual technical details of such contain, since it is so far just talk, but it seems rather definitive. The most definite statement for forking I've seen is in Fabio's blog (dated 2007-07-28, here). I concede I might be misinterpreting his statement here, but it seems pretty clear.

"Attention, I’m preparing the path to fork away from your bugs, definitely. It’s just a matter of time." What does that mean? That he's going to stop sending people to Gentoo bugzilla, or that he's not going to be subjected to buggy ebuilds? FFS, that's gratitude for all the software that made his distro for you.
Quote:
Quote:
Your choice of words is interesting: can you see how that affirms my point that they are leeching from Gentoo?


If I am interpreting what you mean by "but where did they draw their work from for all the previous time?" correctly, I see your argument. However, I might not be, I concede. If I am correct, you would be saying that even if they fork away using Entropy, they have been using Gentoo resources from creation until that fork, which is a fair point. The only response I could offer is, given there are other Gentoo-based distributions especially, would this use of portage be a problem unless there was bad blood for other reasons to begin with?

Well yeah it would, it would be one of the causes of bad blood, since I am guessing a binary distro based on Gentoo would see it as in their interest to report bugs in ebuilds. Fabio clearly sees it as in his interest to use Gentoo ebuilds and fix bugs in them only for his users.
And what I meant was your use of the words "moving away from Gentoo," giving credence to the claim that all this time his distro has used Gentoo.
Quote:
Quote:
To be totally frank, I don't think anyone is really that bothered about your final verdict on the matter. Not meant offensively, only that, as has often been pointed out to me, devs are doing this voluntarily. So if one user (or many) doesn't want to take their word for it, they're not really going to lose any sleep.

Of course they are not, it would be very disheartening if they did as their work as devs is wholly removed from this debate. However, you seem to be putting intentions in my posts that are not there.

But you made a big deal about how you are not prepared to "condemn" anyone, and took great lengths to ask for understanding of this. My point was why do you feel the need to? Do you really think your opinion is that important that everyone is suddenly going to get upset? And I don't think that devs are as far removed from users as you imply. That's why you have devs involved in this debate (and they're not just answering you, they're talking to their community.)
Quote:
I wrote my original post in the spirit of debate, I do not intend to insult anyone (and takes steps not to, thus my careful style such as saying "I think you misintepret" rather than "you misintepret" for example), I do not intend to force my opinions down anyone's throat, I didn't even expect a reply after it (since that would have been the realistic expectation if no one were bothered), I did not expect any of the devs to engage with my points (but am pleased some of them took anything of an interest, or appeared to), I'm not challenging any of them as devs or criticizing them as such, I do not expect them to present me with any evidence and will not challenge their claim to having it (but do not use what I do not have) and I will not feel any resentment towards anyone who disagrees (in fact, would respect a well presented, thought out argument regardless of my evaluation of its truth value). What is wrong with any of that?

Nothing. I still don't see why you feel the need to go to such great lengths to qualify everything though.
Quote:
Part of the reason I came to Gentoo was the fact that debates seemed more varied and frequent here than in my previous distribution. Have I made a mistake there? I would hope not. I do not present opinions with the "defence" that they are merely opinions, but am willing to back them up with arguments (thus my analytic style).

Sure, we like a good discussion or even a passionate row. Personally i find your style of debate a bit too long-winded; in my experience most people are a lot less formal, since this is all done for fun.
Quote:
What I would say here is that I have only seen the opinions of a few devs, if the entire dev community (or a sizable portion of it) were to condemn Fabio then it would be the words of a large number against a few, which would smash any reasonable doubt of who is in the right. But I don't want to be interpreted as asking that just for my own curiosity, either.

See now to me that just sucks. (this is me being informal btw ;) Firstly you keep coming back to condemnation (hence my use of the term legalistic wrt your argument) which I don't like at all. Secondly, you are saying that the majority must be right. A majority of devs might well have the wrong idea about something, they're only human and people like to be in agreement with their peers.

I've explained enough why I think Sabayon are leeches. The fact that they fix ebuild bugs which they never send back to Gentoo is the final straw for me. Good luck to em, and drobbins in his attempt to fork Gentoo with the Sabayon user base, and anyone else who wants to go with them.

I trust they won't be needing any Gentoo ebuilds? Or at least, that they'll fork properly and not keep nicking code off Gentoo; I would imagine so as they are going "to fork away from your bugs, definitely." So let's see, that's some 12,000 packages they'll be maintaining, with no help from Gentoo, as this is a fork remember, ie divergent code bases. They're going to stop being an application of Gentoo (ie an overlay and custom make.conf) and actually compete fairly for a change. Yeah right.

It's utterly reprehensible to my mind, to have taken from Gentoo all this time and never have given back, and on top of that the post you linked to shows complete immaturity:
lxnay wrote:
All the innovation done by them in the latest years is simply rubbish..
I was a Gentoo User Representative but these are my official resignations. Oh, I forgot, User Representative Team never worked. Maybe because of you too.

How old is this guy?! He sounds like a twelve-year old. And if everything new Gentoo has done in the last few years is simply rubbish, why on earth has his distro been based on it for all this time? Surely he could have come up with something better to leech from?
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sabayon is a gentoo linux with a lot of unnecesary packages


slow startup and it's i586 not i686 like gentoo
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:29 am    Post subject: From an outsiders view: Reply with quote

I am missing some consistency here:

Quote:
The Philosophy of Gentoo
... The goal of Gentoo is to strive to create near-ideal tools. Tools that can accommodate the needs of many different users all with divergent goals. Don't you love it when you find a tool that does exactly what you want to do? Doesn't it feel great? Our mission is to give that sensation to as many people as possible.


How does that go along with:
Quote:
Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out.

and
Quote:
Sabayon is a consumer. They are not a member of our community. They consume Gentoo resources and provide minimal feedback.


So you put yourself into membership of an organisation that has as one important part of its purposes to give tools freely to as many people as possible - and yet you complain that one user uses it very succesfully - strange indeed.

It seems to me that the aim of OSS is first and foremost freedom. Anyone can take anything and do as he like - within the restrictions of the license of course - but that only restricts the ways it can be distributed - you can choose to collaborate or compete or both. All is within the OSS spirit.

Excuse me for saying it, but if we take a look at the mindset of and premises for such expressions as those of yours that I have cited here, they seem to me to come from an age not only before Gentoo but even before OSS and GPL

The Gentoo philosophy and social contract sharpens the OSS philosophy and obliges the gentoo developers to work for the users and to collaborate:
Quote:
Gentoo Social Contract...We will establish relationships with Free Software authors and collaborate with them when possible.


Others not members of the Gentoo developer community have not put themselves under such obligations and are thus free to compete or collaborate as they like.

Thus your words here seem to be in itself a clear sign that you have forgotten the users (potentially the world) and are primarily concerned about your own closed circle.

Your text is fuming with alienation and accusations of a personal nature, and adding to that you express a determined enmity.

While I think it is sometimes unavoidable and therefore neccessarily acceptable to have personal antagonies inflicting upon your work, I think also that it is fair to admit that.

But you accuse fabio, a user of gentoo (since he is not a developer of gentoo), of not collaborating, while at the same moment you expressly state that you will not collaborate and that you forbid him access. Then you accuse him of lying while at the same time demonstrate that you are not sticking to the truth, in that you repeat that he does not contribute to Gentoo, but he actually is author of several bugreports. Even more you talk about him as a failure when in fact it is quite succesful to make it to number 5 on distrowatch.

In fact it is a great success for him in that it proves his concept, that there is a lot of users who will use an easy to install bleeding edge desktop oriented version of Gentoo. And it is an even greater succes for Gentoo, that it is possible for one-two-three people in their spare time to make such a distro based on Gentoo.

Why not accept this - it is a great accomplishment?

Why am I writing this?

Because I am a very new user of Gentoo due to Sabayon, and I keep bumbing into this thread often when I google for answers to my fiddlings.

I would never have entered the Gentoo world if not for Sabayon providing an easy and quick installation of a working desktop from where I can work and go further.

Please take down that wall of hostility - it is not bearable in the long run.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: From an outsiders view: Reply with quote

slmeyer wrote:
Quote:
Yup. They take and take and take . . . and provide nothing in return. They don't send us code, developers, or lend a hand to fixing stuff or otherwise help out.

and
Quote:
Sabayon is a consumer. They are not a member of our community. They consume Gentoo resources and provide minimal feedback.


So you put yourself into membership of an organisation that has as one important part of its purposes to give tools freely to as many people as possible - and yet you complain that one user uses it very succesfully - strange indeed.

You misunderstand: the complaint is not that he uses it, it is that he directly competes while using Gentoo resources (ie development time) and at the same time does not contribute back any bug fixes. He even uses the fact that he provides Gentoo ebuilds with bugfixes which are not available to other Gentoo users, as a selling point.

Quote:
It seems to me that the aim of OSS is first and foremost freedom. Anyone can take anything and do as he like - within the restrictions of the license of course - but that only restricts the ways it can be distributed - you can choose to collaborate or compete or both. All is within the OSS spirit.

In fact the aim of Free software (which came before OSS) is to provide the benefits of user collaboration to everyone.

Quote:
Others not members of the Gentoo developer community have not put themselves under such obligations and are thus free to compete or collaborate as they like.

So you think leeching and never giving anything back to the rest of the Gentoo user community is fine? Pfft.

Quote:
In fact it is a great success for him in that it proves his concept, that there is a lot of users who will use an easy to install bleeding edge desktop oriented version of Gentoo. And it is an even greater succes for Gentoo, that it is possible for one-two-three people in their spare time to make such a distro based on Gentoo.

Why not accept this - it is a great accomplishment?

It really isn't you know? All it is is a Gentoo installation with a custom make.conf and an overlay. In fact I have exactly the same thing on my desktop, as does every Gentoo user with a local overlay. Making a Gentoo based distro is supposed to be easy; that was Gentoo's original purpose and is why you hear the term "meta-distribution" (which sounds painful to me) bandied around so often.

http://distrowatch.com/dwres.php?resource=independence#gentoo purports to show distros based on Gentoo, but it doesn't mention Sabayon or Bintoo for some reason; must be out of date.

Quote:
Please take down that wall of hostility - it is not bearable in the long run.

But you just said sabayon are totally free to steal code from Gentoo (since it's GPL) and not provide any of those bugfixes to Gentoo users. How on earth do you expect us to like that?

The easiest solution to my mind is just to start taking bugfixes out of the Sabayon ebuild overlay. After all they're GPL as well, since they're based on Gentoo © work made available under the GPL2.

BTW please tell me Sabayon don't actually claim copyright over the ebuilds in their overlay, since that is totally illegal under EU as well as US law. Those are all still © Gentoo, in the same way that mySQL GPL code with fixes is still © mySQL AB. (You may have copyright over your changes, but without the substantive part your fixes are meaningless.)
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarkMind wrote:
sabayon is a gentoo linux with a lot of unnecesary packages


slow startup and it's i586 not i686 like gentoo

Please tell me I'm not the only one who caught this... Gentoo is not (strictly) i686, its what ever you want it to be, that including i586 if you so desire.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrness wrote:
It is not true they didn't contributed to Gentoo, at least in early days of Sabayon. I remember of a bug report about ltmodem (see bug 148524) in which Fabio provided a patch for making it compatible with the new version of kernel. Also, searching in Bugzilla after bugs reported by Fabio would reveal 32 bugs.

It is sad we've come to this. I don't know who is to blame, but most probably both parties are.

I've always considered Sabayon of being a desktop oriented binary package repository. If they decide to switch to another base distribution, both distros will have only to loose.

True, and contributed/helped on a lot of different maybe underground stuff.
Most of you, gentoo lousy developers, just talk because have a mouth and need to give it some air. :| You are not funny.
I don't really care about by the way, I just care about coding and get both distributions better, WITH FACTS, NOT TALKS, when possible and when our goals are the same.
I personally have a good relatioship with some of you, did you know that?
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