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cokehabit
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: Gentoo is exclusively for developers!!! (Users can piss off) |
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| dberkholz wrote: | Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them. |
No wonder users are leaving in droves  |
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runningwithscissors
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Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Is this new? I thought this kind of stuff was common on the gentoo communication channels.
I admire the honesty, really.
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Zepp
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Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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Ya, pretty elitist I guess. But as long as it continues to suit my needs I'll continue to use it, whatever there motivations are for developing  . |
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cokehabit
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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I think Solar said it best: | Solar wrote: | Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So
before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be
maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two
shits less. |
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ichbinsisyphos
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Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 547
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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omg were doomed! DOOOOOOOOOOMED!
the users arent really leaving in droves, come on. when the hype cooled off many left, but it seems pretty stable for years now.
you can find this kind of attitude even in the social contract. developer-user communication is extremely bad, developer-developer communication too, but gentoo is still a great and (for the most part) well maintained distribution. |
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runningwithscissors
Guru
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | I think Solar said it best: | Solar wrote: | Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So
before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be
maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two
shits less. |
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Still admiring the honesty...
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At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome. |
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tylerwylie
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Joined: 19 Sep 2004
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Location: /US/Illinois/Champaign
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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Fedora 7 ftw.
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shrndegruv
l33t
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 658
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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where is the original quote from?
| Quote: |
Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.
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long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light... |
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cokehabit
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| shrndegruv wrote: | where is the original quote from? | Quote: | Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.
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both quotes are from the gentoo-dev mailing list... Pretty pathetic eh? |
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Phenax
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Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 972
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Most of the time the developers implement what they want, and not what the users want especially if it's free software.
I'm not surprised. |
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shrndegruv
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Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 658
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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i think that attitude is unfortunate, and it reeks of snobbish egoism. The quote strikes me as odd, because the Gentoo community, "the regulars" you see on IRC, have been the best I have encountered, for any distro, in helping people with problems (sometimes naive and annoying) get set straight.
Is gentoo for developers, or is it for those who want to construct a linux system from source/scratch? If the latter, its for those who want to be a part of an esoteric group of linux/computing purists. Maybe that is what the author of the original quote meant....
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long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light... |
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Old School
Apprentice
Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 231
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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It's that kind of attitude, makes me a very satisfied Ubuntu user.
Imagine a distro that cares about the end user.
Don't get me wrong, I love Gentoo. I used Gentoo for years, and learned more about hardware and Linux in general than I otherwise would have. But as long as it remains leaderless, and everyone rowing in different directions, this shitty attitude will continue.
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cokehabit
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Phenax wrote: | Most of the time the developers implement what they want, and not what the users want especially if it's free software.
I'm not surprised. |
shitty attitude by developers usually ends in a shitty attitude by the users |
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runningwithscissors
Guru
Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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A lot of the developers are young college-goers who suddenly find that they're among the elite because they can grok autotools and are recognised as a developer on a well known project.
This kind of behaviour from them is not surprising.
Although there are a fair few older developers who act similarly too.
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VincenzoVega
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Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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Location: The land of mills and wooden shoes
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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A great example of devs giving users the finger (by completely ignoring the patches/users) :
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164375
| Sebastian Rick Rijkers wrote: | Sorry for the bugspam, but could the package maintainer perhaps have a look at
this? It has been two months since I posted the patches that fix this. The
version currently in portage does not seem to work without them. |
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dresb
n00b
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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(Emphasis mine)
| Quote: | The Philosophy of Gentoo
Every user has work they need to do. The goal of Gentoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to do that work as pleasantly and efficiently as possible, as they see fit. Our tools should be a joy to use, and should help the user to appreciate the richness of the Linux and free software community, and the flexibility of free software. This is only possible when the tool is designed to reflect and transmit the will of the user, and leave the possibilities open as to the final form of the raw materials (the source code.) If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy.
Put another way, the Gentoo philosophy is to create better tools. When a tool is doing its job perfectly, you might not even be very aware of its presence, because it does not interfere and make its presence known, nor does it force you to interact with it when you don't want it to. The tool serves the user rather than the user serving the tool.
The goal of Gentoo is to strive to create near-ideal tools. Tools that can accommodate the needs of many different users all with divergent goals. Don't you love it when you find a tool that does exactly what you want to do? Doesn't it feel great? Our mission is to give that sensation to as many people as possible.
Daniel Robbins
Previous Chief Architect |
I just installed PCLinuxOS on another partition, (in fact, I'm posting from there right now) I love it, I love the way the developers go out of their way to provide a seamless desktop experience to users, and its great at what it does, so was Ubuntu last time I tried it.
But I will be going back to Gentoo in a month or two as I always do after get tired of struggling every step I take out of the select contrived and poorly documented ways the PCLOS (or Ubuntu) developers thought I would take.
I will be back to Gentoo BECAUSE it is "a distro for developers", even if I think that description is rough or elitist, it's exactly what I need.
Of course a little more organization or stricter methodology couldn't hurt anyone, but I don't think any particular "direction" needs to be established. |
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mdeininger
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Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 1738
Location: University of Tuebingen, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| VincenzoVega wrote: | A great example of devs giving users the finger (by completely ignoring the patches/users) :
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164375
| Sebastian Rick Rijkers wrote: | Sorry for the bugspam, but could the package maintainer perhaps have a look at
this? It has been two months since I posted the patches that fix this. The
version currently in portage does not seem to work without them. |
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might as well be an example of the devs having other stuff / too much in general to do. afaik, if you think you can help, you can always request to join up, no?
the last time i had been chatting w/ gentoo devs on irc, i didn't have the impression that my words hit on deaf ears... (i admittedly haven't had a chat with /many/ gentoo devs)
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atrus123
Guru
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Annapolis, MD
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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*shrug*
I find that there are a lot of developers in general (not necessarily Gentoo devs) who use Gentoo. So it could be that "developers" in this case are also the users.
In any case, I'm not much of a developer, but I still use Gentoo, so it must be serving me pretty well, even if they aren't explicitly building it for people like me.
Still, the elitism expressed by the quote in the OP is a bit unsatisfactory.
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Shadow Skill
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Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Pay no mind to people like that, you find them everywhere. These are the kind of people who think that the bigger the project the less documentation you should include because the code magically explains itself. (IE they are lazy and/or assholes.) No matter what a program (product) only needs to exist if there is a user (consumer.) it is irrelevant if the developer happens to be the user as well as the creator. So just tell an ass like that to keep their crapware to themselves and stop polluting the internet with it.
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Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.
"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it." |
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cokehabit
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Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| zencoder wrote: | I will be back to Gentoo BECAUSE it is "a distro for developers", even if I think that description is rough or elitist, it's exactly what I need.
Of course a little more organization or stricter methodology couldn't hurt anyone, but I don't think any particular "direction" needs to be established. |
since when did that change? Shouldn't Gentoo have issued a release saying they only want developers and not users?
Gentoo has never been a distro for developers for one reason... there is no such thing. Gentoo's methodology was always "choice" and "options". Gentoo gave users the chance to change and tweak packages while also having a tool to regulate such options |
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VincenzoVega
n00b
Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 42
Location: The land of mills and wooden shoes
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mdeininger wrote: | | might as well be an example of the devs having other stuff / too much in general to do. afaik, if you think you can help, you can always request to join up, no? |
Well in this case the patch has been there for months, it has been tested for months and it just doesn't get merged. There's no "fuck you, go patch it yourself", no "thanks for the good work, I'll patch it asap" and meanwhile the tree still carries a broken version, even though it would probably take around 2 minutes to apply the patch and be done with the bug. |
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Earthwings
Administrator
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7747
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Moved from Off the Wall to Gentoo Chat (Gentoo related).
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cokehabit
Advocate
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3302
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Earthwings wrote: | | Moved from Off the Wall to Gentoo Chat (Gentoo related). |
well thats killed the thread, OTW gets far more attention. |
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shrndegruv
l33t
Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 658
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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I am a software developer, but I didn't use Gentoo because of that. Nor is being a developer the reason I will be coming back to gentoo. I used it because I felt like I had more control of the OS and computer with a system like the one Gentoo provides, plus I like not using a mainstream distro like most of the herd.
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dresb
n00b
Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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| cokehabit wrote: | | zencoder wrote: | I will be back to Gentoo BECAUSE it is "a distro for developers", even if I think that description is rough or elitist, it's exactly what I need.
Of course a little more organization or stricter methodology couldn't hurt anyone, but I don't think any particular "direction" needs to be established. |
since when did that change? Shouldn't Gentoo have issued a release saying they only want developers and not users?
Gentoo has never been a distro for developers for one reason... there is no such thing. Gentoo's methodology was always "choice" and "options". Gentoo gave users the chance to change and tweak packages while also having a tool to regulate such options |
At the beginning the ratio of hackers:users was different than it is today and many hackers just don't feel compelled to cater to the needs of other users anymore, those who do don't seem to be enough.
When I said developers I did not meant Gentoo Developers but people who were capable of hacking around their system without so much hand holding as they seem to need today.
There is a reason for most users leaving Gentoo going Ubuntu instead of plain Debian. |
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