Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
Gentoo is exclusively for developers!!! (Users can piss off)
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next  
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:02 pm    Post subject: Gentoo is exclusively for developers!!! (Users can piss off) Reply with quote

dberkholz wrote:
Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.
No wonder users are leaving in droves :roll:
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
runningwithscissors
Guru
Guru


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this new? I thought this kind of stuff was common on the gentoo communication channels.

I admire the honesty, really.
_________________
At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Zepp
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Posts: 1246
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya, pretty elitist I guess. But as long as it continues to suit my needs I'll continue to use it, whatever there motivations are for developing :P.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Solar said it best:
Solar wrote:
Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So
before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be
maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two
shits less.

_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ichbinsisyphos
Guru
Guru


Joined: 08 Dec 2006
Posts: 547

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

omg were doomed! DOOOOOOOOOOMED!

the users arent really leaving in droves, come on. when the hype cooled off many left, but it seems pretty stable for years now.

you can find this kind of attitude even in the social contract. developer-user communication is extremely bad, developer-developer communication too, but gentoo is still a great and (for the most part) well maintained distribution.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
runningwithscissors
Guru
Guru


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
I think Solar said it best:
Solar wrote:
Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So
before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be
maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two
shits less.
Still admiring the honesty...
_________________
At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tylerwylie
Guru
Guru


Joined: 19 Sep 2004
Posts: 455
Location: /US/Illinois

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fedora 7 ftw.
_________________
BoneKracker wrote:
Lemme smang it girl
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shrndegruv
l33t
l33t


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 658

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

where is the original quote from?

Quote:

Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.

_________________
long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shrndegruv wrote:
where is the original quote from?
Quote:
Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.
both quotes are from the gentoo-dev mailing list... Pretty pathetic eh?
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Phenax
l33t
l33t


Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 972

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of the time the developers implement what they want, and not what the users want especially if it's free software.

I'm not surprised.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shrndegruv
l33t
l33t


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 658

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think that attitude is unfortunate, and it reeks of snobbish egoism. The quote strikes me as odd, because the Gentoo community, "the regulars" you see on IRC, have been the best I have encountered, for any distro, in helping people with problems (sometimes naive and annoying) get set straight.

Is gentoo for developers, or is it for those who want to construct a linux system from source/scratch? If the latter, its for those who want to be a part of an esoteric group of linux/computing purists. Maybe that is what the author of the original quote meant....
_________________
long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Old School
Apprentice
Apprentice


Joined: 20 Nov 2004
Posts: 234
Location: The Covered Bridge Capital of Oregon

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's that kind of attitude, makes me a very satisfied Ubuntu user.
Imagine a distro that cares about the end user.

Don't get me wrong, I love Gentoo. I used Gentoo for years, and learned more about hardware and Linux in general than I otherwise would have. But as long as it remains leaderless, and everyone rowing in different directions, this shitty attitude will continue.
_________________
I am not young enough to know everything.
- Oscar Wilde
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phenax wrote:
Most of the time the developers implement what they want, and not what the users want especially if it's free software.

I'm not surprised.
shitty attitude by developers usually ends in a shitty attitude by the users
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
runningwithscissors
Guru
Guru


Joined: 21 Apr 2006
Posts: 454
Location: the third world

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A lot of the developers are young college-goers who suddenly find that they're among the elite because they can grok autotools and are recognised as a developer on a well known project.
This kind of behaviour from them is not surprising.

Although there are a fair few older developers who act similarly too.
_________________
At some stage, the Hindus locked on to the nation destroying concepts like ahimsa (non-violence), shanti (peace), satya (truth) — the ‘ass’ syndrome.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VincenzoVega
n00b
n00b


Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 42
Location: The land of mills and wooden shoes

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A great example of devs giving users the finger (by completely ignoring the patches/users) :

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164375

Sebastian Rick Rijkers wrote:
Sorry for the bugspam, but could the package maintainer perhaps have a look at
this? It has been two months since I posted the patches that fix this. The
version currently in portage does not seem to work without them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dresb
n00b
n00b


Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Emphasis mine)

Quote:
The Philosophy of Gentoo

Every user has work they need to do. The goal of Gentoo is to design tools and systems that allow a user to do that work as pleasantly and efficiently as possible, as they see fit. Our tools should be a joy to use, and should help the user to appreciate the richness of the Linux and free software community, and the flexibility of free software. This is only possible when the tool is designed to reflect and transmit the will of the user, and leave the possibilities open as to the final form of the raw materials (the source code.) If the tool forces the user to do things a particular way, then the tool is working against, rather than for, the user. We have all experienced situations where tools seem to be imposing their respective wills on us. This is backwards, and contrary to the Gentoo philosophy.

Put another way, the Gentoo philosophy is to create better tools. When a tool is doing its job perfectly, you might not even be very aware of its presence, because it does not interfere and make its presence known, nor does it force you to interact with it when you don't want it to. The tool serves the user rather than the user serving the tool.

The goal of Gentoo is to strive to create near-ideal tools. Tools that can accommodate the needs of many different users all with divergent goals. Don't you love it when you find a tool that does exactly what you want to do? Doesn't it feel great? Our mission is to give that sensation to as many people as possible.

Daniel Robbins
Previous Chief Architect


I just installed PCLinuxOS on another partition, (in fact, I'm posting from there right now) I love it, I love the way the developers go out of their way to provide a seamless desktop experience to users, and its great at what it does, so was Ubuntu last time I tried it.

But I will be going back to Gentoo in a month or two as I always do after get tired of struggling every step I take out of the select contrived and poorly documented ways the PCLOS (or Ubuntu) developers thought I would take.

I will be back to Gentoo BECAUSE it is "a distro for developers", even if I think that description is rough or elitist, it's exactly what I need.
Of course a little more organization or stricter methodology couldn't hurt anyone, but I don't think any particular "direction" needs to be established.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mdeininger
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Posts: 1738
Location: Emerald Isles, overlooking Dublin's docklands

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VincenzoVega wrote:
A great example of devs giving users the finger (by completely ignoring the patches/users) :

http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=164375

Sebastian Rick Rijkers wrote:
Sorry for the bugspam, but could the package maintainer perhaps have a look at
this? It has been two months since I posted the patches that fix this. The
version currently in portage does not seem to work without them.
might as well be an example of the devs having other stuff / too much in general to do. afaik, if you think you can help, you can always request to join up, no?

the last time i had been chatting w/ gentoo devs on irc, i didn't have the impression that my words hit on deaf ears... (i admittedly haven't had a chat with /many/ gentoo devs)
_________________
"Confident, lazy, cocky, dead." -- Felix Jongleur, Otherland

( Twitter | Blog | GitHub )
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
atrus123
Guru
Guru


Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: Annapolis, MD

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*shrug*

I find that there are a lot of developers in general (not necessarily Gentoo devs) who use Gentoo. So it could be that "developers" in this case are also the users.

In any case, I'm not much of a developer, but I still use Gentoo, so it must be serving me pretty well, even if they aren't explicitly building it for people like me.

Still, the elitism expressed by the quote in the OP is a bit unsatisfactory.
_________________
"I cannot support a movement that exploded spending and borrowing and blames its successor for the debt."
-Andrew Sullivan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shadow Skill
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1023

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pay no mind to people like that, you find them everywhere. These are the kind of people who think that the bigger the project the less documentation you should include because the code magically explains itself. (IE they are lazy and/or assholes.) No matter what a program (product) only needs to exist if there is a user (consumer.) it is irrelevant if the developer happens to be the user as well as the creator. So just tell an ass like that to keep their crapware to themselves and stop polluting the internet with it.
_________________
Ware wa mutekinari.
Wa ga kage waza ni kanau mono nashi.
Wa ga ichigeki wa mutekinari.

"First there was nothing, so the lord gave us light. There was still nothing, but at least you could see it."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zencoder wrote:
I will be back to Gentoo BECAUSE it is "a distro for developers", even if I think that description is rough or elitist, it's exactly what I need.
Of course a little more organization or stricter methodology couldn't hurt anyone, but I don't think any particular "direction" needs to be established.
since when did that change? Shouldn't Gentoo have issued a release saying they only want developers and not users?

Gentoo has never been a distro for developers for one reason... there is no such thing. Gentoo's methodology was always "choice" and "options". Gentoo gave users the chance to change and tweak packages while also having a tool to regulate such options
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
VincenzoVega
n00b
n00b


Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 42
Location: The land of mills and wooden shoes

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdeininger wrote:
might as well be an example of the devs having other stuff / too much in general to do. afaik, if you think you can help, you can always request to join up, no?

Well in this case the patch has been there for months, it has been tested for months and it just doesn't get merged. There's no "fuck you, go patch it yourself", no "thanks for the good work, I'll patch it asap" and meanwhile the tree still carries a broken version, even though it would probably take around 2 minutes to apply the patch and be done with the bug.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Earthwings
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7750
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from Off the Wall to Gentoo Chat (Gentoo related).
_________________
KDE 4.12 - Get It While It's Hot!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Butts McCokey
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 3313

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Earthwings wrote:
Moved from Off the Wall to Gentoo Chat (Gentoo related).
well thats killed the thread, OTW gets far more attention.
_________________
Since the bible and the church are obviously mistaken about where we came from, how can we trust them with where we're going?

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind" - Gandhi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
shrndegruv
l33t
l33t


Joined: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 658

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am a software developer, but I didn't use Gentoo because of that. Nor is being a developer the reason I will be coming back to gentoo. I used it because I felt like I had more control of the OS and computer with a system like the one Gentoo provides, plus I like not using a mainstream distro like most of the herd.
_________________
long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dresb
n00b
n00b


Joined: 16 Sep 2004
Posts: 62

PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cokehabit wrote:
zencoder wrote:
I will be back to Gentoo BECAUSE it is "a distro for developers", even if I think that description is rough or elitist, it's exactly what I need.
Of course a little more organization or stricter methodology couldn't hurt anyone, but I don't think any particular "direction" needs to be established.
since when did that change? Shouldn't Gentoo have issued a release saying they only want developers and not users?

Gentoo has never been a distro for developers for one reason... there is no such thing. Gentoo's methodology was always "choice" and "options". Gentoo gave users the chance to change and tweak packages while also having a tool to regulate such options

At the beginning the ratio of hackers:users was different than it is today and many hackers just don't feel compelled to cater to the needs of other users anymore, those who do don't seem to be enough.

When I said developers I did not meant Gentoo Developers but people who were capable of hacking around their system without so much hand holding as they seem to need today.
There is a reason for most users leaving Gentoo going Ubuntu instead of plain Debian.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Off the Wall All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 1 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum