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Yuusou
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And those statements are also indications of a distribution gone corrupt or merely just you gone corrupt. If Gentoo ever expects to go anywhere, then it needs to see that it should be targeting the average user and developing its software based on the average user's needs. Currently, Gentoo by what you are saying is heading down the road of closed source and/or proprietary software. How? By neglecting the average user (which in my case is what user refers to) and coding only for the creator. Software such as Windows has become software developed based on what the creator wants and not what the end user needs/wants and that in my opinion defeats the entire purpose of software as a whole. See a relation between that and what you are carrying on about? I sure do. Your whole attitude of "Gentoo is only for the Gentoo devs and the rest of you are along for the ride" is absolute crap and I would consider you individually (not aiming at the Gentoo project as a whole this time) to be just as bad as Bill Gates. I've NEVER heard such garbage from anyone except you. Us being allowed to use Gentoo is a privilege not a right? HAH! Don't flatter yourself. The thing I like the most about the GPL is, it's the GPL. You can't close the source of a Linux system, it's illegal and total blasphemy (to my knowledge anyway). Even so, people did without Gentoo for years, they certainly could do it again if they had to. I'm going to be slightly harsh and say that your comments reflect nothing but selfishness and the very ideals of a Proprietary software developer.

By the way, free speech exists no matter what you do, but the speaker deals with consequences that follow that freedom of speech. I can go anywhere I want and say anything I want and no one can stop me, same with any other person in the world. However, there could be a consequence that could follow. Therefore, freedom of speech can NEVER be eradicated unless you took away the person's voice box..but that's Biology and I don't wanna get into that :P


That'll prolly be the last post I ever make, but at least I got it out of my system :P
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Phenax
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Erhmh..
Multiple developers worked on this project.
Users caught on, downloaded, liked it, leeched off it.

Now, where in this equation are the multiple developers dependent on the users?
No software I know of is receptive as to the extent that you want it to be.

And honestly, being someone who does a bit myself, I'm not going to implement a suggestion that someone gives me unless I like it. If I don't like it, too bad. I think that goes without saying for most other developers.

Though, if your idea is actually worth a cent I'm sure one out of how many every developers there are will agree with you.

This is all volunteer work, and if people start trying to demand things done to volunteers, they are barking up the wrong tree.

See, some guy like PaulBredbury here I am dependent on. He seems to like making ebuilds for games. I play games. We share a common idea.
If I left, it wouldn't matter to him, would it? If he left, I would have to make my own ebuilds, which I would have to read the manual for. I am dependent on him, there is no way I can think of that he is dependent on me.
Furthermore, when I find a new game, I tell him. If he likes the game then he might make an ebuild for it. If not, I've got to huff it and move on.
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll dissect these points...

Yuusou wrote:
And those statements are also indications of a distribution gone corrupt or merely just you gone corrupt.

Corrupt? I contribute. Corrupt compared to what? This isn't Communism, and it certainly isn't Capitalism. People develop for their own reasons. That means selfishness. This is the reality, because development takes effort, and it's rarely fun.

Quote:
By neglecting the average user (which in my case is what user refers to) and coding only for the creator.

Wrong, because Gentoo is getting easier to use. The creators are users, and develop to make their own lives easier. Thus they create software which is useful to many.

Quote:
Us being allowed to use Gentoo is a privilege not a right?

I was referring to the support structure, not the GPL. If people can get banned from bugzilla, then they obviously do not have a right to it.

Quote:
selfishness and the very ideals of a Proprietary software developer.

Selfishness yes, as I explained above. But proprietary, no. Notice that all my ebuilds have the following standard header:
Code:
# Copyright 1999-2007 Gentoo Foundation
# Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2
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Yuusou
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you'd care to read my post properly, you'd notice that I'm not saying that ebuilds you contribute are distributed under a proprietary license, but I AM saying that the way you talk, you sound just as bad as a Proprietary software developer considering your statements are reflections of the ideals of such people.
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuusou wrote:
If you'd care to read my post properly, you'd notice that I'm not saying that ebuilds you contribute are distributed under a proprietary license, but I AM saying that the way you talk, you sound just as bad as a Proprietary software developer considering your statements are reflections of the ideals of such people.

No he isn't, he's saying if you have a problem, fix it or help to fix it, sitting on f.g.o. crying about problems achieves 100% zero, zilch, nada, nothing. The place for reporting bugs is http://bugs.gentoo.org and gentoo-dev mailing list, while being polite about it, bugs get resolved much faster when non-devs make an effort, if devs see you trying, they're much more likely to help out.
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
There is no such distinction as "userbase" and developers - the developers are users. Bugs are often filed by devs for other devs. The fact that non-dev users are allowed to be included is a privilege and not a right. There is no support contract here. Know thy place.

Let's not get confused about who develops what. The Linux kernel is not a Gentoo project, and neither are the Nvidia drivers.

Free speech is a wonderful idealism that doesn't really exist. People can and do get banned from bugzilla, these forums, IRC and (I think) mailing lists. They all have "acceptable behaviour" guidelines. And since there is no support contract in place, speech can simply be ignored.

I repeat, a developer is a user. Thus the arguments that the userbase is hugely important are negated by the developers themselves being the primary users. Everyone else is just along for the ride, although some might contribute and even eventually become developers.

This sounds harsh, eh? Well, it's realistic. It explains why a hundred "users" can rant and moan about e.g. XMMS being removed, and not make a shred of difference apart from being an annoying waste of time. Such things are not a sign that Gentoo is dying, they are a reflection that the developers make the decisions.
Yeah but there were good reasons why XMMS was removed, and there was a large part of the user community who understood that. Be honest: if gentoo were only for devs, XMMS would have been removed a long time before that.

I found your initial post disconcerting. You basically said the users don't matter, since gentoo is developed for devs- now you want to say there is no distinction. Why on earth would anyone want to get involved with a distro which says "We don't care about our users."?

And frankly, that's not the attitude I've seen from many devs. I can understand that someone who only ever hacks ebuilds that s/he uses or likes might not think of other users. Anyone who does more than that, or even I don't know, writes some code, knows that users are important; for one thing we all started out as learner users. For another, users give us the data we need to work on. Yadda yadda.

I get what you're saying; all we're saying is that if users are devs of the future, maybe you should treat us as such?
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Yuusou
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
PaulBredbury wrote:
There is no such distinction as "userbase" and developers - the developers are users. Bugs are often filed by devs for other devs. The fact that non-dev users are allowed to be included is a privilege and not a right. There is no support contract here. Know thy place.

Let's not get confused about who develops what. The Linux kernel is not a Gentoo project, and neither are the Nvidia drivers.

Free speech is a wonderful idealism that doesn't really exist. People can and do get banned from bugzilla, these forums, IRC and (I think) mailing lists. They all have "acceptable behaviour" guidelines. And since there is no support contract in place, speech can simply be ignored.

I repeat, a developer is a user. Thus the arguments that the userbase is hugely important are negated by the developers themselves being the primary users. Everyone else is just along for the ride, although some might contribute and even eventually become developers.

This sounds harsh, eh? Well, it's realistic. It explains why a hundred "users" can rant and moan about e.g. XMMS being removed, and not make a shred of difference apart from being an annoying waste of time. Such things are not a sign that Gentoo is dying, they are a reflection that the developers make the decisions.
Yeah but there were good reasons why XMMS was removed, and there was a large part of the user community who understood that. Be honest: if gentoo were only for devs, XMMS would have been removed a long time before that.

I found your initial post disconcerting. You basically said the users don't matter, since gentoo is developed for devs- now you want to say there is no distinction. Why on earth would anyone want to get involved with a distro which says "We don't care about our users."?

And frankly, that's not the attitude I've seen from many devs. I can understand that someone who only ever hacks ebuilds that s/he uses or likes might not think of other users. Anyone who does more than that, or even I don't know, writes some code, knows that users are important; for one thing we all started out as learner users. For another, users give us the data we need to work on. Yadda yadda.

I get what you're saying; all we're saying is that if users are devs of the future, maybe you should treat us as such?


Amen steveL, amen...
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

steveL wrote:
You basically said the users don't matter

It's not that black & white, because some users contribute positively and are grateful.

Devs vary in their motivations and altruistic nature.

No distro says "we don't care about our users", because that would be the same as saying, "we don't care about our own developers".
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Yuusou
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PaulBredbury wrote:
steveL wrote:
You basically said the users don't matter

It's not that black & white, because some users contribute positively and are grateful.

Devs vary in their motivations and altruistic nature.

No distro says "we don't care about our users", because that would be the same as saying, "we don't care about our own developers".


Except for the fact that you are saying that you ONLY care about the devs and not the average users. Average user is what 90% of people I talk to refer to as a "user". We refer to average users as "users" and developers as "developers." Therefore, you ARE saying you don't care about the average user and only care about the devs which is a philosophy that could very well bring ANY project to the ground. Even Microsoft doesn't have such a senseless attitude and that is saying something.

And tell me this: if Gentoo didn't care about it's average users, why would it go to the conferences that it goes to or provide chat support and mailing lists and installers and bugzillas and wikis? In my opinion, I think you are mostly speaking for yourself and not the Gentoo Project as a whole.
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PaulBredbury
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuusou wrote:
Except for the fact that you are saying that you ONLY care about the devs and not the average users.

Wrong, and my several thousand posts in these forums show that I help users of all types.

I suppose there will always be a (thankfully small) proportion of users who refuse to accept reality, so this thread will never die :(
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jonnevers
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yuusou wrote:
And tell me this: if Gentoo didn't care about it's average users, why would it go to the conferences that it goes to or provide chat support and mailing lists and installers and bugzillas and wikis? In my opinion, I think you are mostly speaking for yourself and not the Gentoo Project as a whole.

so then the Gentoo developers aren't lazy and do care about the users? are you now arguing against your original posts? I think so.
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Yuusou
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Most of them don't seem to as of late, but I know of a few who do. At any rate, this is wasting everyone's time. I'll just be on my way to other things.

See ya guys, and good luck.
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koikahin
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:18 am    Post subject: out of topic.. but Reply with quote

out of topic but this is the very reason i wont leave gentoo....... this thread started in 2004 and still receives replies three years hence!!

go gentoo!!
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steveL
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2007 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Please God, let this thread die! It keeps popping back up and is so boring; if you have issues with Gentoo, post them in the User Reps forum, but for god's sake remember that most of the people in here LIKE Gentoo. Yeah I might not like some devs or some users, but I still see them as caring about the distro I use. Arguments based on passion are cool afaic, so long as they stay on-topic and don't descend into insults.
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