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chrisfreet
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wolf31o2 wrote:
metacircular-evaluator wrote:

If there is a must for updating - for example a security reason - then in Gentoo you have to update to a new version.
Because:
a) you have to get a new portage to be able to emerge the updated package, and in there is new version (always)
b) you have to emerge to the new version
to get rid of the security fault.


For some packages, yes. Many times we simply install an upstream patch, rather than upgrade. Also, there's *nothing* stopping you from back-porting the patch yourself. You've got the package manager. You've got the ebuilds. You've got the source.

Quote:
But you know: That there is no mechanism to update as you can in Debian - speak: staying at the same version of the package to be updated and getting the security update, but also at the same time staying at the same version down to the toolchain and kernel -
this is not possible in Gentoo .

Bullshit.

You are more than welcome to back-port patches and submit them. You have everything you need to do so....


Thank you for saying this so bluntly... of course, it's my opinion that you are intentionally ignoring the obvious, that these guys would rather bitch than do something about this problem they perceive - not that a problem actually exists.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dtjohnst wrote:
Great post Chris. When people ask me what Distro they should use, I completely ignore their experience and tell them "Gentoo". I've done Slack and I toyed with Debian, and I played around with a few others. And Gentoo might take longer to install, but in the end you know HOW you installed it, WHY you did certain things, and what the point of it all was. It only seems hard because it's a lot of typing commands that are so foreign initially. But after you've installed it 3 or 4 times and created a half dozen kernels or so, you can sit back and laugh at how you were intimidated.


Admittedly, I've been too cautious in my recommendation for using Gentoo when it comes to "lightweights". I agree with you that lack of experience should be ignored in recommending Gentoo. Sure, it's cliche, but Gentoo really is more than just a distribution.
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ticho
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisfreet wrote:
dtjohnst wrote:
Great post Chris. When people ask me what Distro they should use, I completely ignore their experience and tell them "Gentoo". I've done Slack and I toyed with Debian, and I played around with a few others. And Gentoo might take longer to install, but in the end you know HOW you installed it, WHY you did certain things, and what the point of it all was. It only seems hard because it's a lot of typing commands that are so foreign initially. But after you've installed it 3 or 4 times and created a half dozen kernels or so, you can sit back and laugh at how you were intimidated.


Admittedly, I've been too cautious in my recommendation for using Gentoo when it comes to "lightweights". I agree with you that lack of experience should be ignored in recommending Gentoo. Sure, it's cliche, but Gentoo really is more than just a distribution.


Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.


That's why God invented Windows. If someone doesn't want to learn about computing and how a system works, why are they using a *nix at all? There's enough compatibility in this world to make anything you HAVE to on *nic (work or school for example you might be FORCED to) work on a Windows system and vice versa.

If my friends came to me and said "I want to run Linux, what do you suggest?" and then proceeded to whine and moan while I tried to help them install Gentoo if they went with my recommendation, I'd tell them to repartition, reformat, toss in their windows disk and be content with it. Debian is a great Distro, no denying it. But NOTHING in Linux is as cut and dry as in Windows, nor is the community support. Post here or on LinuxQuestions or some such, and it can take days to get 30-40 views and a response. Do the same on any of the myriad of Windows support forums and you get hundreds of views an hour. Or you just reboot/reformat/take it to the shop and get it repaired.

When you surf the gentoo forums, the vast majority of questions are SERIOUS, difficult quandries that baffle most people. That's why we can go 30 views with no response. Now head over to linuxquestions.com and look at the huge amount of morons using the easy-to-use distros who couldn't troubleshoot their way out of a basic mounting problem, or a simple problem with file permissions, or anything else that never pops up here but is, for all intents and purposes, a common problem. That's the advantage of having a process that forces people to read and learn and research. If people don't have the desire to do any of that, if they don't want to have to read a manual or read through 20 screens of error logs to narrow down their problem, they really should stick to windows.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think Linux should try and cater to the lazy who have no desire to learn. When things break, you can't click on a magic "repair" button and have it get fixed, so you NEED to understand it to fix it. If people have no desire to do so and want a magic button, Windows and Mac offer those features and I'll gladly help them get those up and running instead. But I won't waste my time helping someone get even the most use-friendly linux installed if they demonstrate a lack of desire to figure things out.

It's like when people complain about Gentoo not having binary support or something. Because sometimes they're computers are too slow to compile or they just want an application fast......I shake my head and wonder why they're using Gentoo. That's Gentoo's niche. If you want other features, there's other distros that offer them. It's the same idea here. If people want the features and ease-of-use offered by Windows, they should be using windows, not be whining because linux is too hard.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dtjohnst wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just don't think Linux should try and cater to the lazy who have no desire to learn. When things break, you can't click on a magic "repair" button and have it get fixed, so you NEED to understand it to fix it. If people have no desire to do so and want a magic button, Windows and Mac offer those features and I'll gladly help them get those up and running instead. But I won't waste my time helping someone get even the most use-friendly linux installed if they demonstrate a lack of desire to figure things out.


Luckily not everyone shares your opinion, so we can have distributions which are quite usable for common users.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.


No offense, but that's about the biggest load of crap I've heard comparing Windows to any Linux distro. This assumes there are no problems when using or installing Windows, and saying that would be a HUGE lie. I have problems using Windows which are more pervasive that the ones using Linux, and the problems I have using Windows (not to mention simply installing Windows) are not self-induced. They are MS induced. I won't bother going into details considering this has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dtjohnst wrote:
I'm sorry, but I just don't think Linux should try and cater to the lazy who have no desire to learn. When things break, you can't click on a magic "repair" button and have it get fixed, so you NEED to understand it to fix it. If people have no desire to do so and want a magic button, Windows and Mac offer those features and I'll gladly help them get those up and running instead. But I won't waste my time helping someone get even the most use-friendly linux installed if they demonstrate a lack of desire to figure things out.


Here here. First of all, this concept of a "magic button" does not exist. One of my main philosophical problems is that Windows users are wooed with the assumption that this is true (by the likes of AOL, et al). One of the main issues is that people pay for Windows with the assumption they are paying for a bullet-proof environment, and that ain't what they get. MS markets their platform under the auspices that the end-user is getting "value" [whatever the hell that means] they can't get if they don't buy Windows. What they are getting is the same thing they would get if they ran a Linux machine, a bullet-proof platform, but without the "bullet-proof".

Second, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that Windows is more user-friendly than Linux. That may be the perception, but I don't believe it is true without some fore-knowledge which is always assumed to exist in a Windows environment. I submit that Windows is more "supported" than Linux, from the perspective of help when things go to crap for the common user. (Even that may not be true, depending on how bad the "crap" is.) But, this is the nature of the Linux vs. Windows argument, the so-called "value". Not that I buy into that.

For example, my dad has 1 Windows computer, and 1 Linux computer (Ubuntu, for now). Sure, he works on the Ubuntu box more than the Windows box (maintenance), but that's because he actively breaks it and fixes it in an effort to learn, AND because he refuses to do anything more than casual network activity on the Windows box, lest he get infections and spyware and the like.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisfreet wrote:
ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.


No offense, but that's about the biggest load of crap I've heard comparing Windows to any Linux distro.

Did you read the word "windows" anywhere in my post? Cool your jets.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:
chrisfreet wrote:
ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.


No offense, but that's about the biggest load of crap I've heard comparing Windows to any Linux distro.

Did you read the word "windows" anywhere in my post? Cool your jets.


ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer?


So exactly what did you mean? BSD, Unix, HP-UX, OS2 warp, VMS? Do tell....
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dtjohnst wrote:
Post here or on LinuxQuestions or some such, and it can take days to get 30-40 views and a response. Do the same on any of the myriad of Windows support forums and you get hundreds of views an hour. Or you just reboot/reformat/take it to the shop and get it repaired.

The best parts of Gentoo are these forums and it's community support.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. The original point of this thread was for people to STFU and just use something that works for them.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 8:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
dtjohnst wrote:
Post here or on LinuxQuestions or some such, and it can take days to get 30-40 views and a response. Do the same on any of the myriad of Windows support forums and you get hundreds of views an hour. Or you just reboot/reformat/take it to the shop and get it repaired.

You're trolling.

The best parts of Gentoo are these forums and it's community support.


This forum is the best periode :)
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:

Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.


I would recommend not to use a computer at all to those people. To really use your computer at the stage of development we are now (maybe in 20-50 years that might change) you need to gain computing experience, be it on Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Mac or any other OS.

A computer is an incredibly complex machine that allows you to use it for literally millions of different purposes and it just isn't possible to use a machine like that with the attitude that you don't want to learn anything about it.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
dtjohnst wrote:
Post here or on LinuxQuestions or some such, and it can take days to get 30-40 views and a response. Do the same on any of the myriad of Windows support forums and you get hundreds of views an hour. Or you just reboot/reformat/take it to the shop and get it repaired.

You're trolling.

The best parts of Gentoo are these forums and it's community support.


wtf are you talking about? I'm not trolling. My point was, and I think it was pretty clear if you read the whole thing, that if someone doesn't want to learn how to use a computer, they should stick to windows since there are more users out there to get support from and can, therefore, get responses faster if you do have a strange problem. It wasn't a jab at Gentoo or these forums, it was a jab at people who want to use Linux but aren't willing to make an effort to learn, as ticho suggested was the case sometimes.

Sometimes problems get answered here pretty quick......if it's a simple, common problem. No doubt about it. But something strange that not everyone has seen can take awhile to get help on. That's something you deal with when you run ANY Linux distro, because there are no magical point and click fixes like with windows. And if someone isn't willing to learn and deal with that, they SHOULD NOT be using linux.

Is my point clear now, or am I still trolling?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chrisfreet wrote:
ticho wrote:
chrisfreet wrote:
ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.


No offense, but that's about the biggest load of crap I've heard comparing Windows to any Linux distro.

Did you read the word "windows" anywhere in my post? Cool your jets.


ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer?


So exactly what did you mean? BSD, Unix, HP-UX, OS2 warp, VMS? Do tell....


I interpreted him to mean recommended a distro that doesn't involve all the compiling and effort that Gnetoo does. Fedora or RH or some such thing.
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:
Have you considered that some people just don't want to learn the ins and outs of a Linux system, don't want to gain "computing experience" - that they just want to use their computer? That's why I think recommending Gentoo blindly to everyone is a really bad idea.


dtjohnst wrote:
I interpreted him to mean recommended a distro that doesn't involve all the compiling and effort that Gnetoo does. Fedora or RH or some such thing.


Who knows; I didn't bother giving him that benefit of the doubt, since assuming he meant "some people" would rather use another Linux distro wouldn't make much sense in the context he spoke. Maybe ticho can clarify, not that this is an important point.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dtjohnst wrote:
I interpreted him to mean recommended a distro that doesn't involve all the compiling and effort that Gnetoo does. Fedora or RH or some such thing.

That's right - since I was replying to a post talking about how poster recommends Gentoo when someone asks him what Linux distribution does he recommend...
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taladar wrote:
A computer is an incredibly complex machine that allows you to use it for literally millions of different purposes and it just isn't possible to use a machine like that with the attitude that you don't want to learn anything about it.

Tell that to thousands of office workers who only turn their computer on and off, and only run three or four applications they need, without knowing (or wanting to know) what's behind. Or to my sister, who only uses computer to surf web, read/write e-mails and view pictures from her digital camera.
By "computing experience" in my first post, I was referring to "knowing what's behind". I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:
Taladar wrote:
A computer is an incredibly complex machine that allows you to use it for literally millions of different purposes and it just isn't possible to use a machine like that with the attitude that you don't want to learn anything about it.

Tell that to thousands of office workers who only turn their computer on and off, and only run three or four applications they need, without knowing (or wanting to know) what's behind. Or to my sister, who only uses computer to surf web, read/write e-mails and view pictures from her digital camera.
By "computing experience" in my first post, I was referring to "knowing what's behind". I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough.


So why are they installing a Linux OS at all?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dtjohnst wrote:
So why are they installing a Linux OS at all?

because someone recommend Gentoo to them, and we are now back at square one.

I have friends with compsci bachelor degrees that are unable to maintain a Gentoo system. This is not Gentoo's fault, the fault is with my friends. They should be smart enough to use a tool that is within their capability. Sometimes, for instance, they get all worked up and bite off way more then they can chew (speaking metaphorically where chewing means ability to adapt and learn). Gentoo is a mental work-out that can lead to serious mental break-downs. I just wish at this point the person would take a second to make their critiques constructive before spewing them on these forums as if the entire world cares about their concerns.

Gentoo is the absolute best development distro. period.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dtjohnst wrote:
So why are they installing a Linux OS at all?

That's not important. Perhaps they received a laptop for work purposes, with linux installed and preconfigured, like my friend's mother, because IT people in her company decided it's the best solution for what she's using it for (VPN connection to company server used for an in-house web application plus e-mails, if I recall correctly).

The point is that computers are used more and more frequently like appliances - you just need basic training (push this button to do this), like for a hairdryer or so. And fortunately, there are linux distributions which cater to those, and there are distributions which are suitable for us, who love to tinker with the system and figure our what makes it tick. It's not good to try to force one distribution to everyone - that's what Microsoft does.

And before you start picking on my hairdryer metaphor, that was an oversimplified example and I know that. :)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:
It's not good to try to force one distribution to everyone - that's what Microsoft does.

how can you possible say this when there are 7 different versions of vista?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jonnevers wrote:
ticho wrote:
It's not good to try to force one distribution to everyone - that's what Microsoft does.

how can you possible say this when there are 7 different versions of vista?


I hate Microsoft as much as any of you, but let's please keep this in the context of Linux distributions. I started the thread to argue why Gentoo was in my opinion the best distribution with the assumption that those who would participate in the discussion understood that Windows sucked. With all due respect, let's please bicker about Linux distributions and keep the "M" word out of it. (Personally, I don't think it's worthy of being uttered anyway.)

That being said, I will immediately disobey my own suggestion.

I can appreciate anyone who would rather run Ubuntu than Windows, and for that matter, run Ubuntu rather than Gentoo. Yes, Gentoo is more complex to setup than a typical Linux distro, but after you get passed that point, it's all the same. For this reason I wouldn't be so dumb as to recommend my mom install Gentoo on her computer, but I sure as hell would install it for her and have her use it on a daily basis. She and some others in the family (who I know are not in the least interested in learning about building a kernel) not withstanding, Gentoo is for everyone. Of course, not everyone is for Gentoo.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 1:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ticho wrote:
dtjohnst wrote:
So why are they installing a Linux OS at all?

That's not important. Perhaps they received a laptop for work purposes, with linux installed and preconfigured, like my friend's mother, because IT people in her company decided it's the best solution for what she's using it for (VPN connection to company server used for an in-house web application plus e-mails, if I recall correctly).

The point is that computers are used more and more frequently like appliances - you just need basic training (push this button to do this), like for a hairdryer or so. And fortunately, there are linux distributions which cater to those, and there are distributions which are suitable for us, who love to tinker with the system and figure our what makes it tick. It's not good to try to force one distribution to everyone - that's what Microsoft does.

And before you start picking on my hairdryer metaphor, that was an oversimplified example and I know that. :)


Ok........case and point. It's ALREADY installed. No one would be recommending a distro to them. They won't come to you and say "Hey, I have a work computer with linux already installed and configured, which distro would you recommend I use?" So I fail to see your comparison and all. The question is what would you recommend if someone came to you saying they just wanted to start out. And I still maintain if someone said "I really don't care to learn Linux, I just want it to work", I'd say "Stick with windows/OSX".

For what it's worth, I thought the hairdryer analogy was fine.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Ubuntu Freek Reply with quote

Yeah, I did the Ubuntu thing, just like you. I built a box for mom and she loves it for e-mail and serfing. It runs great and she will never break it. I loved Ubuntu so much that when I found this box in a garbage heap I figered I'd install it again.
But..
1) Nvidia-legacy gives you hell!

2) Alsa-seq gives you hell!

3) Framebuffer gave me hell!

4) SDL gives you hell!

5) svgalib gives you hell!

6) I QUIT!

Ok, so I downloaded the Gentoo-Livecd and "BING!" stonewalled again. The friggin installers don't work! I'm with you on the Gentoo thing though; I've installed it before from "minimal" , and it went well after a couple of tries. But d00de, they gotta do somthin' bout the crappy installers on the Livecd: it simply don't work! I figured I would save some time and get set up real quick, and maybe recompile later, but the installers (tried both GTK and Curses) are screwed. If you make something, it should work for you. Why put something out there for everyone to download and ... it don't work. Why would you say, "this is how we're gonna do it, but if YOU want to try an easier way, here's a POS you can try... and pardon the download time. By the way, when you're finished-- there's no warranty and the documents are outdated and don't refer to this method of installation." This is what I don't get: Why LiveCD? Why LiveCD with a stage3 installer? If anyone has gotten the installers on the LiveCD to work, please tell me how. But the Docs for the "Gentoo Way" are great! The best!

Okay, enough ranting about the livecd. I thought it would work for me and it didn't. So back to "minimal"; I know that. I can make that work. And when I get it done it will be sweet and pretty. It will also work when I want to change something. But that leads us to Windows. Oh-My-God! We have to put up with a disposable computer. That's what it is! Back to the computer I found in the garbage. Why would someone throw a perfectly good 1.5GHZ. P4 in the garbage. We all know why someone with the money to blow would do something like that. And that's not the only computer I have gotten in such a manner. I have a 900MHZ and a 2.5GHZ as well. The guy that threw those away also dumped a PCIx Geforce for which I made $100 bucks on E-Bay (he probably bought it thinking it would fit in an AGP8 slot), but thats beside the point. I had the opportunity to ask him for the items and his reason for throwing them out was that they were getting "slow." As if this were as natural as your TV or iPod "getting slow." I was puzzled but grateful.

As a consumer, I expect things to work out of the box. The transparency of how something works is essential. You see it every day in the most obscure places. Linux is still a hacking or hobbyist thing. When it becomes an appliance is when it corrupts. Nevermind that people like you and me can find good use in it. It's still difficult for plain people to use. That's why Ubuntu is not so great. I had similar problems with Debian. As a matter of fact I had the best luck when I was using Redhat way back when and compiling everything; I hated the package manager with Redhat!

Yup, custom compiling is the best I have found. Gentoo makes it easy to do that. Don't call me a hacker, but call me a guy who don't wanna to pay for something that is gonna break eventually because I try to break it just like you. And then I try to fix it.
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chrisfreet
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Joined: 12 Nov 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ztomiccomputers wrote:
Why would someone throw a perfectly good 1.5GHZ. P4 in the garbage. We all know why someone with the money to blow would do something like that. And that's not the only computer I have gotten in such a manner.


Because you can't run Vista on it :!:
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