Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Gentoo Forums
Quick Search: in
why is sun java still in portage?
View unanswered posts
View posts from last 24 hours

Goto page 1, 2  Next  
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
fehlfarbe
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 9:04 pm    Post subject: why is sun java still in portage? Reply with quote

Code:
java-sdk-docs has fetch restriction turned on


i wish sun's java could be completely removed from portage tree.
People who need sun can install it manually.
for us, blackdown is enough.

thx

edit:

the guys who like to install sun's java have to accept the license, download the packages [have fun, it is hard to find the right packages on sun.com] and move it to portage dist-dir anyway. so what is the advantage having sun-java in portage?

the disadvantage for all users: emerge will be interrupted because of suns java restrictions.
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
didymos
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 4798
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, well now that sun is moving java to the GPL, the license and download issues will eventually disappear. Also, you neglect to notice that blackdown still doesn't have a usuable 1.5 jdk or jre, much less a 1.6. Plus, is it really that hard for you to figure out how to download Java from Sun?
Quote:

for us, blackdown is enough.


Yeah, well, speak for yourself.
_________________
Thomas S. Howard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dralnu
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 1919

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

didymos wrote:
Yes, well now that sun is moving java to the GPL, the license and download issues will eventually disappear. Also, you neglect to notice that blackdown still doesn't have a usuable 1.5 jdk or jre, much less a 1.6. Plus, is it really that hard for you to figure out how to download Java from Sun?
Quote:

for us, blackdown is enough.


Yeah, well, speak for yourself.


didymos - you speaking in terms of developing java?
_________________
The day Microsoft makes a product that doesn't suck, is the day they make a vacuum cleaner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
wuzzerd
Guru
Guru


Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 434
Location: New Mexico

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm now you just emerge it. I use it because blackdown renders and important site with nice black menus instead of white on black.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Earthwings
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 7751
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:27 pm    Post subject: Re: why is sun java still in portage? Reply with quote

fehlfarbe wrote:
Code:
java-sdk-docs has fetch restriction turned on


i wish sun's java could be completely removed from portage tree.
People who need sun can install it manually.
for us, blackdown is enough.

Who is that 'us' you are talking about?

fehlfarbe wrote:
the guys who like to install sun's java have to accept the license, download the packages [have fun, it is hard to find the right packages on sun.com] and move it to portage dist-dir anyway. so what is the advantage having sun-java in portage?

Portage knowing about it? A clean uninstall? Notifications about updates?

fehlfarbe wrote:
the disadvantage for all users: emerge will be interrupted because of suns java restrictions.

Install blackdown if it's enough for you, no sun packages won't interrupt emerge.

Edit: Moved from Portage & Programming to Gentoo Chat.
_________________
KDE 4.14 - Get It While It's Hot!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
didymos
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 4798
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not particularly speaking in terms of anything, except that this "us" for which blackdown is enough is really just fehlfarbe. Others may feel the same, they may not. The point is, unless fehlfarbe has been doing extensive opinion polling, he has no idea what anyone considers "enough" with respect to java.
_________________
Thomas S. Howard
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
i92guboj
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10117
Location: Córdoba (Spain)

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:40 pm    Post subject: Re: why is sun java still in portage? Reply with quote

I completely fail to see a bit of practical sense on your suggestion.

First, there are gentoo developers that care about the ebuilds, and maintain them, which is why they are in the tree. Second, it works, is stable, usable, and a need for java developers. Last, but not least, I fail to understand your final statement.

fehlfarbe wrote:
the disadvantage for all users: emerge will be interrupted because of suns java restrictions.


Hehe, you don't want the emerge process to be stopped? Well, that is a fair desire, but no one is forcing you to install java on your machine. Plus, you can emerge blackdown if that is enough for you, and you will not have to bother downloading Sun's java.

EDIT: Been that said, I hate java, I admit it, but while there are maintainers for the stuff and the thing is woking ok, and bearing in mind that it does not require unstable or strange dependencies, there is no reason to remove it. If you don't want propietary stuff in portage we should as well push out of the tree all the binary closed source drivers (bye to the opengl desktop thing :P ) and some other useful stuff. And bye to the comercial games :P

I hate and dont feel a need for gnome either, what about removing it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fehlfarbe
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sun's java is still not open source. i use blackdown, but:

Quote:

[nomerge ] dev-java/blackdown-jdk-1.4.2.03-r13 USE="doc -nsplugin"
[ebuild N F ] dev-java/java-sdk-docs-1.4.2 33,592 kB


again: why is there no -sun useflag?

thx
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
psyqil
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 26 May 2003
Posts: 2767

PostPosted: Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a "-doc" flag...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
i92guboj
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10117
Location: Córdoba (Spain)

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fehlfarbe wrote:
sun's java is still not open source. i use blackdown, but:

Quote:

[nomerge ] dev-java/blackdown-jdk-1.4.2.03-r13 USE="doc -nsplugin"
[ebuild N F ] dev-java/java-sdk-docs-1.4.2 33,592 kB


again: why is there no -sun useflag?

thx


I fail to see your point.

You have the doc use flag on, and portage wants to install the java documentation. What is the problem? The java docs are from Sun, since they are redistributable and there is no point in repeating a work that is already done.

By the way, the java source code is available for download, as you can see in the java download repositories here: http://www.sun.com/software/communitysource/j2se/java2/download.xml

Instead of calling it "open source" they have a licensing model that they call "Sun Community Source Licensing". I dont really have bothred to read the whole license, so I can't say wether this license is compatible with gpl or any other open source license model.

EDIT, you can read the license here: http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/scsl_5.0-license.txt
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Gergan Penkov
Veteran
Veteran


Joined: 17 Jul 2004
Posts: 1464
Location: das kleinste Kuhdorf Deutschlands :)

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1.7 should come as gpl2, I hope that this will solve the major problems which sun-jdk has on linux at the end.
But to say that blackdown is enough for someone is just a joke - I don't know if they have 1.5 version, but I doubt it - so you're better off just without java.
My wish is better support for all the available jdks, I've fought yesterday with jrockit install as the ebuild in portage is outdated and does not work with current downloads - at the end jrockit seems to be much more stable than sun-jdk, albeit a little bit slower - the stability and reliability outweights the slowness as it is somehow better to wait 1-2 seconds more somewhere, but not to wait minutes to start eclipse and application server two times an hour :)
_________________
"I knew when an angel whispered into my ear,
You gotta get him away, yeah
Hey little bitch!
Be glad you finally walked away or you may have not lived another day."
Godsmack
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
nbensa
l33t
l33t


Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 799
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:34 am    Post subject: Re: why is sun java still in portage? Reply with quote

fehlfarbe wrote:

i wish sun's java could be completely removed from portage tree.
People who need sun can install it manually.
for us, blackdown is enough.


And you are... who??

I don't remember voting anyone representing me.

And btw, I _want_ every package in the world available in portage, commercial ones too.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
flazz
Guru
Guru


Joined: 22 Nov 2003
Posts: 496
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

as someone who works with Java everday, Sun's is the best. the API is more complete than any others, and the JVM will run more stuff without less problems.

I think you are confusing the gentoo way with the debian/ubuntu way, non gpl is not bad, its just not free as in freedom. the portage developers are not distributing java, just providing a means to install it. if you dont want it, dont emerge it. but like the above statement implies, you might want to.

but anyway java is now GPL you can download it and i'm guessing the developers are working on compiling the jvm as the default sun package. be patient it will be there, remember the gentoo way is (sorta) "if you can compile it, then compile it."

and if you are impatient then roll your own overlay.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
steveL
Advocate
Advocate


Joined: 13 Sep 2006
Posts: 2910
Location: The Peanut Gallery

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wuzzerd wrote:
Hmm now you just emerge it. I use it because blackdown renders and important site with nice black menus instead of white on black.
Please tell me that's a joke..
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jhgz1
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 16 Dec 2003
Posts: 115
Location: Gainesville

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flazz wrote:
remember the gentoo way is (sorta) "if you can compile it, then compile it."


I thought it was "If it moves, compile it."
_________________
Bei Gentoo mithelfen wollen und kein Programmierer? Gentoo sucht Übersetzer, die bereit sind kontinuierlich mitzuarbeiten.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fehlfarbe
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:29 am    Post subject: sorry, plz! Reply with quote

<BOLD>I DON'T WANT TO EMERGE SUN JAVA</BOLD>
useflag "doc" -> means emerge java-sdk, java-jdk, java-tomcat, java-xyz?
sorry, that is crap!
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fehlfarbe
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nbensa: you (for a java freak) are full of speed :)
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fehlfarbe
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@6thpink: "doc" useflag is not reserved for sun! there are other documentations i would like to emerge!

sun is closed, sun is slow, sun is money, sun is not for real mens like me!
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
playfool
l33t
l33t


Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 688
Location: Århus, Denmark

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

please remember that Sun is only going to be done with the GPL'ing of Java by March '07 so far we have only gotten a few, but significant, bits.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fehlfarbe
Tux's lil' helper
Tux's lil' helper


Joined: 28 Dec 2003
Posts: 81
Location: berlin

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

at:flazz: as someone who works everyday with C and C++, i have to ask: is there any OS out there implemented in sun java? no? leave me alone. do your java thing, enjoy it, but give me the chance to avoid this crap. plz give me the -sun flag
_________________
Adopt an Unanswered Post
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Conan
Guru
Guru


Joined: 02 Nov 2004
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fehlfarbe wrote:
@6thpink: "doc" useflag is not reserved for sun! there are other documentations i would like to emerge!

sun is closed, sun is slow, sun is money, sun is not for real mens like me!


man portage
/package.use

/quit forums
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
i92guboj
Moderator
Moderator


Joined: 30 Nov 2004
Posts: 10117
Location: Córdoba (Spain)

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fehlfarbe wrote:
@6thpink: "doc" useflag is not reserved for sun! there are other documentations i would like to emerge!

sun is closed, sun is slow, sun is money, sun is not for real mens like me!


Please, no need to get upset. I am just informing you about a fact, if you don't like it, better go any other place and troll there.

Look with open eyes to the code you posted

Code:

[nomerge ] dev-java/blackdown-jdk-1.4.2.03-r13 USE="doc -nsplugin"
[ebuild N F ] dev-java/java-sdk-docs-1.4.2 33,592 kB


and stop being that fanatic. As you can see, the doc use flag implies java-sdk-docs, not all the packages that you are saying. You can check it with your own eyes

Code:

$ USE="doc" emerge -pe dev-java/blackdown-jdk | grep dev-java
[ebuild  N F  ] dev-java/java-sdk-docs-1.4.2 
[ebuild  N    ] dev-java/java-config-wrapper-0.12-r1 
[ebuild  N    ] dev-java/java-config-2.0.31 
[ebuild  N    ] dev-java/java-config-1.3.7 
[ebuild  N    ] dev-java/blackdown-jdk-1.4.2.03-r13  USE="doc -nsplugin"


Convinced? Not yet?

One of the phrases from your post that i liked the most was '"doc" useflag is not reserved for sun! there are other documentations i would like to emerge!'

Of course it is not. For example, in the gimp it adds another package, called gimp-help, maybe we should also change the use flag in that package. What would be a valid name for you? The doc use flag is used to install aditional documentation, and it depends on the package what will be installed on each case. If you want the java documentation you need that file from the sun servers. That, or write your own documentation for java and stop trolling around.

If you want the use flag to be used on that package and not in the rest you can set it to -doc in make.conf, and then use package.use to add it only for blackdown.

So, you are a real man and we are all gays. Let me say one thing: real men do not use java :twisted: As said, the source of sun is no more closed, so stop telling crap. It is not gpl, but is not closed either. I don't like java either, but "surprise!" you are not the only one using gentoo, and surely a lot of people do find it useful.

The package works, and in fact, there are things that works only in Sun's java, there are maintainers, no one hates that package but you. I don't like it, I don't use it, I don't use gnome either, I don't even use flash or win32codecs (surelly you don't either, since they are closed stuff as well ;), like the nvidia and ati 3d drivers), but that is my choice, and I am not forcing anyone to do what I do. That way to act is not what the linux spirit is about, cause you would be cutting options and forcing people to do what you want to do, and imposing restrictions on which software to use, because it just does not fit your weird concept of perfection.

If you really want to get some changes to any use flag, fill a bug at bugzilla, and expose detailed info, and not just a rant, cause it would be marked as invalid in about one minute.

Take it easy, there is no need to be angry about this at all.

Regards.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pjp
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 16116
Location: Colorado

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't like it, don't use it.
_________________
lolgov. 'cause where we're going, you don't have civil liberties.

In Loving Memory
1787 - 2008
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Redhatter
Retired Dev
Retired Dev


Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 548
Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're determined to have sun-jdk kicked from the tree aren't you?

I personally use Sun Java. Why? I find blackdown isn't as good at running the sort of applications I run, as Sun Java is.

Like it or not, it is the reference implementation. Sure, I find Sun's desire to make us jump through hoops getting their software irritating, but I only have to do it once every few months. I'd sooner do that, then the headscratching required to get blackdown to do the same task.

The Sun JDK documentation will be pulled in, if you have USE=doc set. To fix this:
Code:
# echo 'dev-java/blackdown-jdk -doc' >> /etc/portage/package.use


Voila, no Sun JDK docs.
_________________
Stuart Longland (a.k.a Redhatter, VK4MSL)
I haven't lost my mind - it's backed up on a tape somewhere...

Gentoo/MIPS Cobalt developer, Mozilla herd member.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
revenger
n00b
n00b


Joined: 23 Sep 2005
Posts: 23
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fehlfarbe wrote:
sun's java is still not open source. i use blackdown


blackdown (besides binary redistribution rights) is not more open than sun's vm
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Gentoo Forums Forum Index Gentoo Chat All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum