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geniux
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 Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| genfive wrote: | | many many many many years ago, Microsoft got into trouble for including IE with the operating system. But isn't gnome doing the same thing now? |
But you can safely remove Epiphany without breaking the whole system, so you still have some power over your desktop  IE couldn't/can't (don't know if you can nowadays since I don't use it) be removed from your system
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Emopig
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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genfive:
No, the difference is you can type "emerge --unmerge evolution" and it's gone (provided you don't try to update world afterward). Gnome just provide the goodies, the 'problem' is how its packaged by distro's. The debate in this thread is whether gentoo being the 'Linux your way' of the Linux distro world should (or maybe should not) provide a evolution USE flag, so you can easily keep it off your system. Please don't get all philosophical about it, and keep on topic 
I think maybe Gnome are pushing Evo pretty hard because it's their great token win/tie against MS's outlook software. It *is* a great app and certainly a worthy component of the Gnome desktop. I just think it's also a pretty personal piece of software compared to something like, say gedit, and therefore IMHO needs a dedicated USE flag. But thats my opinion.
Has anyone else tried isez2001's ebuild? Also i've notice there is an "evo" USE flag in use by other software, would it make sense to use "evo" instead of "evolution"?
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isez2001
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| Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Emopig wrote: | | genfive:Also i've notice there is an "evo" USE flag in use by other software, would it make sense to use "evo" instead of "evolution"? |
According to ufed, both flags seem to exist already:
| Code: | evo Adds support for evolution in gnumeric and multisync
evolution Local flag: Provide an Evolution plugin (mail-client/mail-notification) |
(In case anyone doesn't know, ufed is a tool for managing USE flags. It's only a few kilobytes, I highly recommend trying it... emerge ufed, and then run ufed from a terminal)
I am in the process of emerging GNOME (-evolution, -epiphany, and -eds) on a new Gentoo install. Aside from the massive amount of compiling and downloading (booo 384k internet), all is well.
I don't see any reason why this ebuild should fail. It seems pretty well accepted that Evolution and Epiphany aren't necessary for any technical reason, and, although I don't know much about them, I can't imagine removing evolution-data-server or evolution-webcal will break anything, either. |
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sternklang
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| isez2001 wrote: | | although I don't know much about them, I can't imagine removing evolution-data-server or evolution-webcal will break anything, either. |
There are a number of gnome and other packages (like gaim) that use evolution-data-server. Luckily for you, almost all of them have an eds USE flag to control the dependency. As far as I can see, ekiga is the only gnome-distributed package that needs e-d-s but doesn't have a USE flag, so it probably can't get along without it. |
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isez2001
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 3:56 am Post subject: |
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Emerge just finished (after an entire day of building), and all appears well.
Is there much more to say? |
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Emopig
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | | As far as I can see, ekiga is the only gnome-distributed package that needs e-d-s but doesn't have a USE flag, so it probably can't get along without it. |
Ekiga isn't part of the Gnome metapackage, but even if it was shouldn't a metapackage just list applications that a user could emerge seperately, not the dependencies/libraries for each of it's applications? (unless it's some kind of developers bundle of course). It's baffling why the Gnome metapackage even lists EDS when some of the other apps listed in the ebuild would pull it in anyway (if the eds USE flag was on or if it was Ekiga).
There seems to be more redundancy as well. For example:
| Quote: | >=app-admin/gnome-system-tools-2.14.0
>=app-admin/system-tools-backends-1.4.2 |
System-tools-backends is listed as a dependency in gnome-system-tools, so why is it listed in the Gnome metapackage? It seems to me this would cause a useless dependency to be left on users machines if they were to unmerge gnome-system-tools and do a depclean and mean people have to put more clutter in their package.provided list.
Am I not understanding how ebuilds work properly? 
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sternklang
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Emopig, your understanding is correct. But some of the dependencies in the meta-package are there precisely because Gnome considers them part of a full Gnome desktop. The differences between what's included for that reason and what's included as a functional necessity is the whole point behind this thread.
FYI, Ekiga is part of Gnome 2.16, as far as upstream is concerned. |
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isez2001
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:03 am Post subject: |
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So, what could be done from here?
We have a working ebuild, which could be submitted witha bug report. We know that a Mozilla USE flag has been rejected, but what we have is slightly different. Where a Mozilla flag asks to change and make additions to GNOME, what we have simply makes existing features optional. Perhaps the biggest hurdle I see is that some of the flags used are not enabled by default (meaning the features would not be included be default--something the GNOME team clearly wants). I don't know what to do about that.
Are there any members of the Gentoo/GNOME team who are willing to become involved with this discussion either here, by PM, or on IRC? |
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Emopig
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isez2001
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Then let the debate continue...
(on Bugzilla) |
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isez2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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So Bugzilla was unfriendly at best...
The irony in reading the bug is "Resolved," while the resolution is "Won't Fix" is almost painful. Especially after having actually provided a fix.
But I do understand their reasoning, and I know deep down inside that they're probably right.
Unfortunately, that still leaves us with either GNOME bloat we don't want, or a mess of individual GNOME components along with gnome-light.
The other day, I stumbled across Gentoo Linux Enhancement Proposal 21, which describes a potential solution. GLEP 21, (found here: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0021.html) describes a method for creating package "sets," which function like your own custom metabuild. With something like this, a person could emerge gnome-light, add any other functionality desired, and put all the packages into a set for easy updating.
It sounds like just the ticket, but there's a catch: The functionality doesn't actually exist in Portage.
So... are there any programmers reading the thread here? |
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filterpunk
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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| isez2001 wrote: | So Bugzilla was unfriendly at best...
The irony in reading the bug is "Resolved," while the resolution is "Won't Fix" is almost painful. Especially after having actually provided a fix. |
What I don't understand is why it'd be so painful for them to implement it. It's one thing to include those things as defaults, but it's nonsensical to force them just because they're intended (but not technically required) to be part of the overall integrated environment by upstream. At least as far as Gentoo is concerned, the process of configuring your system is a series of personal preferences - your machine, your choices, and built around them. It's an additive process rather than subtractive, which is the main reason I use it as my distro. If I wanted to spend time removing crap I don't want, i'd be running Ubuntu or Fedora or whatever.
Since the removal of packages like Evolution doesn't generally break anything, the "Wont Fix" response comes across as a little condescending, IMO. As i'm trying to switch from KDE, this isn't turning out to be a very enjoyable changeover.
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not sure that your suggestion is really appropriate, though. E-D-S is nothing more than a single backend to store calendaring, mail, contacts, etc. Despite the name, it isn't specific to Evolution (in fact, there are plugins for Gaim and other applications to use it, and other libraries like TinyMail to make use of it as well). You don't necessarily need to install Evolution or Epiphany or whatnot, but other aspects of GNOME use it for storage of this data. (Similar in some ways to having so much configuration data in GConf - and thus accessible to just about any application as I understand it.)
Secondly, one of Gentoo's goals is also to stay consistent (insomuch as can be done without distro-specific fixes, et al.) with the upstream packaging. If Gentoo's GNOME team starting deviating from their upstream, it would add more work and more troubleshooting/testing to their current list.
Come to think of it: Perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding your issue? 
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isez2001
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:42 am Post subject: |
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| codergeek42 wrote: | I'm not sure that your suggestion is really appropriate, though. E-D-S is nothing more than a single backend to store calendaring, mail, contacts, etc. Despite the name, it isn't specific to Evolution (in fact, there are plugins for Gaim and other applications to use it, and other libraries like TinyMail to make use of it as well). You don't necessarily need to install Evolution or Epiphany or whatnot, but other aspects of GNOME use it for storage of this data. (Similar in some ways to having so much configuration data in GConf - and thus accessible to just about any application as I understand it.)
Secondly, one of Gentoo's goals is also to stay consistent (insomuch as can be done without distro-specific fixes, et al.) with the upstream packaging. If Gentoo's GNOME team starting deviating from their upstream, it would add more work and more troubleshooting/testing to their current list.
Come to think of it: Perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding your issue? |
Your first comment is a misunderstanding of the issue. I included the EDS use flag because it already exists, and is used by other packages (including Gaim), but the bug report only requests Evolution and Epiphany. Although other options would be nice, Evolution and Epiphany can especially be singled out because of the great variety and quality of alternitives. Web browsers and email clients are probably the most diverse set of applications you can find on a persons computer. Within Linux alone, there are at leat a half-dozen strong choices within each category, and each choice will have its own loyal following. To include Evolution and Epiphany in Gnome without any simple way to opt away from it just creates hassles and wastes time for a user who prefers Firefox, Thunderbird, Seamonkey, Opera, or whatever else their favorite flavor might be.
Your second point is absolutely correct. In this case, it's not the answer we might like to hear, but it's correct, and that's why I'm not bothering the Gnome Crew about it any more.
If you read back up to my previous post about GLEP 21, you'll see what might be an acceptable (or even preferrable) workaround involving some enhancements to portage. It seems like it would be easy enough to implement for a person who's comfortable with Python... I get the impression that portions of code could even be recycled from existing Portage functionality, but as far as I can tell, nobody's made any move to take the project on. |
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codergeek42
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the clarification, isez2001.
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filterpunk
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| Posted: Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| codergeek42 wrote: | | I'm not sure that your suggestion is really appropriate, though. E-D-S is nothing more than a single backend to store calendaring, mail, contacts, etc. Despite the name, it isn't specific to Evolution (in fact, there are plugins for Gaim and other applications to use it, and other libraries like TinyMail to make use of it as well). |
When I first read this, I sat back thinking, "uh-huh...sure.." I go look and sure enough, it doesn't even depend on Evolution. Definitely a poor naming choice and description, though. A lot of people probably assume it's related to Evolution without a second thought, and the 'groupware' tag always makes me think of MS Exchange sort of gunk.
Maybe a new description is in order, at the very least?
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gzunk
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 9:25 am Post subject: |
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If one of Gentoo's goals is to stay consistent with upstream packaging, why were the KDE ebuilds split? (If I go to the KDE site they offer source downloads that look a lot like the monolithic e-builds)
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sternklang
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| filterpunk wrote: | | A lot of people probably assume it's related to Evolution without a second thought, and the 'groupware' tag always makes me think of MS Exchange sort of gunk. |
A lot of people assume correctly. It's the evolution back-end for data storage, so evo depends on it, not the reverse. It was built as a separate component so applications throughout the Gnome desktop would have a common method to access calendar, contact, etc. information, to reduce the problem where you have to enter the same information into 5 different applications.
As for working with exchange, you're probably thinking of evolution-exchange, the component that hooks evo into exchange servers. I agree exchange is gunk, but it's widely used gunk in the corporate world so evolution has to talk its language. |
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filterpunk
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| sternklang wrote: | A lot of people assume correctly. It's the evolution back-end for data storage, so evo depends on it, not the reverse. It was built as a separate component so applications throughout the Gnome desktop would have a common method to access calendar, contact, etc. information, to reduce the problem where you have to enter the same information into 5 different applications.
As for working with exchange, you're probably thinking of evolution-exchange, the component that hooks evo into exchange servers. I agree exchange is gunk, but it's widely used gunk in the corporate world so evolution has to talk its language. |
If i'm understanding the intent of eds correctly, I still don't like it much. I know a lot of people like that sort of thing, but for my own uses, I don't want anything accessing my calendar, contact, email, etc. information except me, myself, and I.
Take Gaim, for example. It has a laundry list of USE flags, from avahi and mono to xscreensaver and spell. If these things were all required dependencies, I think i'd probably stop using it. Luckily, it doesn't, so users pick-and-choose what they want and ignore the things they don't. On the flipside, Evolution itself piles on a calendar, email, address book, plus a slew of USE flag options. While it might be a great email client, not everyone wants the other features, but they have to take them whether they want them or not. This is a Bad Thing, imo. The KDE people got it right with Kontact, by positioning it as more of a container for those applications, but the user chooses whether they want the whole thing or just KMail or Akregator or whatever. Gentoo itself takes a similar approach, so why be burdened by what upstream says should be the default?
An additive, modular approach is far more preferrable IMO than one that is subtractive and over-integrated due to trying to address every possible type of user. You know the saying.. jack of all trades, master of none? Same principle.
I know.. i'm on a tangent a bit. The whole thing bothers me though, because it feels like Windows/MacOS-style integration all over again. You have a choice, sure, but when there are only three choices and none of them address your particular wants, it kind of sucks :p
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isez2001
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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It's not a tangent at all. That's what this entire thread has been about  . |
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filterpunk
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| isez2001 wrote: | | It's not a tangent at all. That's what this entire thread has been about . |
Well, I was afraid people would say, "stick to evolution, not debating levels of integration!" or something. Not to mention that the response, and maybe general consensus, is that this is a non-issue.
I guess what bothers me is that if we stick to upstream, we're basically at their mercy should they decide to add programs to the default environment ad nauseum. Since the structure of Gentoo provides us a means to avoid that situation through simple USE flags, it doesn't make any sense to me why we'd still aim for that. I've seen the reasoning, but frankly, it smells like bullshit, y'know? It's out of my hands though. We have gnome-light, but having tried it before, it's a little too stripped down.
I've been working on a more modular ebuild to replace the current options, at least for my own purposes, but it's kind of frustrating that doing so is necessary.
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isez2001
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:43 am Post subject: |
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I wholeheartedly agree with you; it is disappointing that Gnome has not been made to take more advantage of Portage's functionality.
After tinkering with a few other distributions over the past few days, I have noticed that Gentoo may be unique is its "vanilla" Gnome install. SuSE and Edubuntu (and presumably Ubuntu as well) ditch Epiphany in favor of Firefox. Arch provides modular options for gnome, including an option for Epiphany. Even more notable is that Arch does not install a mail client in its default Gnome package. No Evolution unless you ask for it by name!
There's nothing inherent to Gentoo that means it has to be this way. The principle of "Upstream Gnome" comes from the Gnome Herd, who maintains the Gnome ebuilds. Anyone else would be free to take on the creation and maintenance of another Gnome metabuild using split ebuilds or a multitude of USE flags. All of the packages already exist in Portage, so it should be just a matter of skillful ebuild coding to bundle them into more flexible packages.
For anyone interested, the Gnome Herd has their Meta Ebuild policy here:
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/desktop/gnome/gnome-policy.xml |
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filterpunk
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| isez2001 wrote: | I wholeheartedly agree with you; it is disappointing that Gnome has not been made to take more advantage of Portage's functionality.
After tinkering with a few other distributions over the past few days, I have noticed that Gentoo may be unique is its "vanilla" Gnome install. SuSE and Edubuntu (and presumably Ubuntu as well) ditch Epiphany in favor of Firefox. Arch provides modular options for gnome, including an option for Epiphany. Even more notable is that Arch does not install a mail client in its default Gnome package. No Evolution unless you ask for it by name! |
Well, for what it's worth, I may just see about putting together an alternate overlay or something. I'm testing the first ebuild attempt right now and so far, so good. I basically set options for the Project Utopia stuff (hal, dbus, avahi, etc), set esound, audiofile, accessibility, and nautilus-cd-burner as optional, and removed the more "personal choice" apps altogether. Where gnome-light is too stripped, I figure that if the main desktop stuff is well-covered, anyone can load up a usable Gnome environment and start adding the apps they want without having to build half the DE in the process. I'd venture to guess that the Gnome herd feels that introducing these sorts of options leaves the door open for too many to juggle, but the only way I see that happening is if the metapackage is approached from a purely black-and-white standpoint - i.e. trying to address one extreme (everything) or another (nothing). Nobody ever seems to consider the grey area, but i'm going to try.
I've tried SuSE, Fedora, and Ubuntu and though they have somewhat better options in a couple spots, they also perpetuate the "everything and the kitchen sink" problem worse than most others. A bit of a catch-22, but luckily not my problem, since I don't like any of those distros :p
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K T A
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| filterpunk wrote: | | I don't want anything accessing my calendar, contact, email, etc. information except me, myself, and I. |
May I have that printed on my clothes?
| filterpunk wrote: | | Well, for what it's worth, I may just see about putting together an alternate overlay or something. I'm testing the first ebuild attempt right now and so far, so good. |
I'd be delighted to test it...
KTA |
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Dralnu
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| gzunk wrote: | | If one of Gentoo's goals is to stay consistent with upstream packaging, why were the KDE ebuilds split? (If I go to the KDE site they offer source downloads that look a lot like the monolithic e-builds) |
From what I read in the GNOME herb group thing page, they basically just want to post the ebuilds and not worry about things.
KDE itself is, in all, MASSIVE, and the split was a dev idea, not user (if memory serves).
[rant]I could start a rant here on Gentoo trying to make things their way, but I'm not going to seeing as how, from what I've seen/heard, alot of devs just don't care[/rant]
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