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| Should X 7.1 still be testing only because of closed source drivers (ati/nvidia)? |
| Yes! |
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55% |
[ 254 ] |
| No! |
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[ 172 ] |
| I don't care! |
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| Total Votes : 454 |
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VinzC
Watchman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 5098
Location: Dark side of the mood
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 Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:27 am Post subject: |
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| slycordinator wrote: | What I'm saying is that no matter what they do to get the information out there, a good chunk of people will still miss the message.
Like I mentioned, with Apache, every method that the devs could think of were used. They put out the info in newsletters, forums, ebuild warnings, etc. And it still failed. About the only thing left they could've tried was sending out individual emails. |
All you can say is "some people missed the message". OTOH you have no idea (neither do I) of how many people actually *saw* the message *and* did *not* post any message because they just did it right. So nobody can't even figure out the ratio between those who read the message and those who didn't. So, depending on wether you think positive or not, you'll say "quite a bunch" or "some people" didn't read. 
And even if some people don't read warnings, notes, forums and sticky posts, these warnings, notes, information can be refered to since they exist. Hence it's harmless than if they didn't.
Mostly the problem you are refering to currently is purely human and has nothing to do with Xorg. Clueless users will always exist and, frankly, better cope with them instead.
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slycordinator
Advocate
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 3065
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | Mostly the problem you are refering to currently is purely human and has nothing to do with Xorg. Clueless users will always exist and, frankly, better cope with them instead. |
It's also a gentoo problem. Automated updating would avoid this issue. |
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VinzC
Watchman
Joined: 17 Apr 2004
Posts: 5098
Location: Dark side of the mood
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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"The problem you are referring to currently" was about those people who don't read before posting...
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slycordinator
Advocate
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 3065
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| VinzC wrote: | | "The problem you are referring to currently" was about those people who don't read before posting... |
I was getting at the fact that with an update system that was more automated, the issues we're seeing wouldn't be issues. With an automated update to xorg, there wouldn't be as much of a need to read through a whole bunch of stuff.
Sorry if I confused you by sort of changing the subject. Sometimes I can get on a tangent easily and it can be hard for others to see where it came from (though it always, err most of the time , makes sense in my head).
We both have a problem that a (possibly significant) portion of people forget to read warnings, don't watch the forums constantly, or don't sign up for the newsletters and that our system almost requires doing just that.
btw: I'm not saying "throw away our documentation" or something. I'm just saying that having a bunch of different places you need to look for that info is a problem. |
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devik
n00b
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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I'm just wondering... what exactly is the problem, anyways?
My system (amd64):
* x11-base/xorg-x11
Latest version available: 7.0-r1
Latest version installed: 7.1_rc2
* media-video/nvidia-kernel
Latest version available: 1.0.8762-r1
Latest version installed: 1.0.8762-r1
* media-video/nvidia-glx
Latest version available: 1.0.8762
Latest version installed: 1.0.8762
Portage wants me to downgrade xorg-x11, most likely because I removed the modular X.org packages from package.keywords (I had added them in per the Modular X.org upgrade guide). I just loaded up UT2004 to make sure everything still worked... it did. Well, except sound, but that's another issue all together...
Unless X.org 7.1 isn't the problem but a different package - like xorg-server, which is the actual blocker anyways, and I'm running 1.1.0 on that.
So I'm just wondering what's going on here. In theory, I shouldn't be able to have these packages installed together and have a working system... right? |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54272
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: |
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devik,
The application binary interface has changed between Xorg 7.0 and Xorg 7.1 such that the ATI ans nVidia drivers no longer work.
You can coax some life out of the nVidia driver with Xorg 7.1 only if you turn off the acceleration, in which case, there is no point in using it.
ATI have released a new driver which is Xorg 7.1 compatible. We are still waiting for nVidia.
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devik
n00b
Joined: 20 Feb 2005
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| But I haven't turned off acceleration. I don't think it would turn itself off, but even if it did... When I said I loaded up UT2004, I didn't mean I just checked to see if it would run. I played a match, on max settings, with no slowdown... I guess this just means my little ol' GeForce 6600 is god? xD |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54272
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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devik,
It means it works for you and nobody else, or possibly you have never turned the acceleration on, so you have no need to turn it off again to make the nvidia driver operate with Xorg 7.1 ?
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
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R!tman
Veteran
Joined: 18 Dec 2003
Posts: 1303
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: |
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There's still light at the end of the tunnel!
Most people might have heard about AMD buying ATi. Now, there seems to be a possibility that the ati-drivers, at least partially, will be put under a free license.
Read the whole thing here. The interesting part, concerning the ati drivers, is at the end, the last paragraph. |
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: Re: ATI Open Source Drivers |
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| candrews wrote: |
And as for the nvidia people (sadly, I also have a desktop with an nvidia card) maybe it's time to start really pushing behind the nv open source project. I'd be willing to donate a couple bucks - imagine if we all did! |
You can replace your desktop card with an ATI, actually they sell the X1000 series that seem really good. You'll have to wait a bit
for the Open Source drivers* (and even for decent closed sources), but we're fairly sure you'll be more happy with that than with
a "just closed-source-drivers work out of the box" nvidia card. Happy waiting!
*note: no, still I haven't any info about an r400 or r500 open source drivers project.But I'm sure it will be there in a year or two.
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Matteo Azzali
Retired Dev
Joined: 23 Sep 2004
Posts: 1133
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: |
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| R!tman wrote: | There's still light at the end of the tunnel!
Most people might have heard about AMD buying ATi. Now, there seems to be a possibility that the ati-drivers, at least partially, will be put under a free license.
Read the whole thing here. The interesting part, concerning the ati drivers, is at the end, the last paragraph. |
Oh, that's a new! IF that will be done, at least the r*00 drivers could be merged with the fglrx ones to produce a driver that is Open Source
AND has a minimal-but-working OpenGL support (those of fglrx) for any card and not only an obsolete subset (yes..... r300 is obsolete).
I hope things will go that way.
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If you're born distro, no matter what, start to run.
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enderandrew
l33t
Joined: 25 Oct 2005
Posts: 731
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: |
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AMD has always been a big fan of Linux and OSS. I assumed that when they bought out ATI this would be the case.
I'm curious what license they will go with, and if the Linux community will finds ways to optimize/improve/contribute to the ATI drivers once they are opened up.
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Gusar
Advocate
Joined: 09 Apr 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: Slovenia
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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I can't believe how many bought into the AMD marketing speak and actually think they will release fully functional opensource drivers. They said, they will release "a functional subset of ATI’s graphics drivers". To me, this reads "2d only", just like nvidia's opensource 'nv' driver.
I would love to be proven wrong, but until an actual release from AMD/ATI happens, this is what I believe. |
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sofachillax
n00b
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:52 am Post subject: |
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linux already has a huge market share in a sector which is in heavy need of linux 3d drivers (movie effects). all distributors should exclude those drivers from their package management to rise the pressure.
besides, those companies should at least start gpl'ing their 1 year and older drivers and see what happens. |
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Kensai
Guru
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 569
Location: Puerto Rico
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Some people just don't understand. As much as NVIDIA or ATI wants to opensource their driver they CAN'T DO IT. Is illegal for them to do it since much of the technology used on those drivers are patented and propietary technology from which ATI nor NVIDIA has right to opensource.
I see RMS has influenced in a bad way, Linus said it right: "Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested. 99% of that I run tends to be open source, but that's _my_ choice, dammit." (October 26, 2004). 
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Q-collective
Advocate
Joined: 22 Mar 2004
Posts: 2071
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Kensai wrote: | Some people just don't understand. As much as NVIDIA or ATI wants to opensource their driver they CAN'T DO IT. Is illegal for them to do it since much of the technology used on those drivers are patented and propietary technology from which ATI nor NVIDIA has right to opensource.
I see RMS has influenced in a bad way, Linus said it right: "Anybody who tells me I can't use a program because it's not open source, go suck on rms. I'm not interested. 99% of that I run tends to be open source, but that's _my_ choice, dammit." (October 26, 2004). |
Some people just don't understand. It is NOT illegal to publish their specifications, so that we can write the drivers without ever using patented technology. |
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NeddySeagoon
Administrator
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 54272
Location: 56N 3W
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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Q-collective,
That depends on
a) the wording in any NDA
b) if the interface is wholly owned by the vendor
Neither nVidia nor ATI have any incentive to invest money in fixing either of those points
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NeddySeagoon
Computer users fall into two groups:-
those that do backups
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Kensai
Guru
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 569
Location: Puerto Rico
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Q-collective wrote: | | Some people just don't understand. It is NOT illegal to publish their specifications, so that we can write the drivers without ever using patented technology. |
EDIT: NeddySeagoon explained this in a better way than I could. Sometimes one needs to verify his facts. And see what the conversation is about. 
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sofachillax
n00b
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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i don't understand how people over here can stab richard stallman in the back like this. they really don't understand the philosophy OR history of gnu and should maybe go to windows, mac or bsd and stop whining. linux is gpled and it therefore will always be gpled software. linus knew it when he released it under that license.
those free beer people are even worse than the ones who pay for ms software.
try to realize what gnu means to society and computer users and search the web for stallmans speeches.
dum biatchez. |
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Kensai
Guru
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 569
Location: Puerto Rico
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| gr3ml1n wrote: | try to realize what gnu means to society and computer users and search the web for stallmans speeches.
dum biatchez. |
Try to realize that even Linus Torvalds doesn't care about RMS. Neither a Linux user should. RMS needs to come down to earth. He wants to open source everything I never choosed Linux because it was open source, neither do most of the people who use it. We just know Linux is in fact better than Windows. And sure Linux needs to remain open source as many of the software but because NVIDIA can't/don't want to open source their drivers we have to put preassure on them, NO.
And I do realize what GNU means is just that it is like 1% of the reason I switched from Windows to Linux more than 2 years ago.
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sofachillax
n00b
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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try to realize that torvalds released it under the gpl and stated afterwards that it was the best thing he ever did.
and try to realize that linus gets too much recognition in the media stallman should get. he is the one who started it all, and the number of apps which use the gpl shows that he has broad support. this is especially true for the developers who worked on GNU/Linux before linus torvalds was hyped as the initiator of the operating system which he not is. the kernel is important, but without being under the gnu license lots of people wouldn't have developed for the system. i am one of the people who use GNU/Linux, the correct naming convention. |
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slycordinator
Advocate
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 3065
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:56 am Post subject: |
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| gr3ml1n wrote: | | i don't understand how people over here can stab richard stallman in the back like this. they really don't understand the philosophy OR history of gnu and should maybe go to windows, mac or bsd and stop whining. linux is gpled and it therefore will always be gpled software. linus knew it when he released it under that license. |
This is completely untrue. Just because the kernel is gpl doesn't mean every piece of software is gpl too.
Since you've been focussing on the "GNU/Linux" versus just "Linux" debate... couldn't someone release a NON-GNU Linux? And they could even name it Lindows and later change it to Linspire.
Anything that uses the Linux kernel is a Linux. For instance, if windows stopped using an NT-kernel and used the Linux kernel Windows would be a form of Linux. |
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sofachillax
n00b
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 70
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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| slycordinator wrote: | | gr3ml1n wrote: | | i don't understand how people over here can stab richard stallman in the back like this. they really don't understand the philosophy OR history of gnu and should maybe go to windows, mac or bsd and stop whining. linux is gpled and it therefore will always be gpled software. linus knew it when he released it under that license. |
This is completely untrue. Just because the kernel is gpl doesn't mean every piece of software is gpl too.
Since you've been focussing on the "GNU/Linux" versus just "Linux" debate... couldn't someone release a NON-GNU Linux? And they could even name it Lindows and later change it to Linspire.
Anything that uses the Linux kernel is a Linux. For instance, if windows stopped using an NT-kernel and used the Linux kernel Windows would be a form of Linux. |
omg q-_-p
no, nobody can release a non-gnu linux. since it is under gpl and that license is designed to stay and spread.
but anybody who makes a new kernel can make a non-linux gnu os. besides, linus torvalds holds the trade mark "Linux". and linspire sux. |
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slycordinator
Advocate
Joined: 31 Jan 2004
Posts: 3065
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| gr3ml1n wrote: | no, nobody can release a non-gnu linux. since it is under gpl and that license is designed to stay and spread.
but anybody who makes a new kernel can make a non-linux gnu os. besides, linus torvalds holds the trade mark "Linux". and linspire sux. |
Linspire "sucks" but it still is linux. It's got a linux kernel.
BUT linspire is not gnu, as it includes proprietary software by default.
And I think you misunderstood what I meant: Someone can create a non-gnu OS that is still a linux because it uses the linux kernel. I wasn't meaning that the person would be using a non-gnu linux kernel (as there's no such thing). |
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Kensai
Guru
Joined: 09 Mar 2004
Posts: 569
Location: Puerto Rico
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| slycordinator wrote: | | And I think you misunderstood what I meant: Someone can create a non-gnu OS that is still a linux because it uses the linux kernel. I wasn't meaning that the person would be using a non-gnu linux kernel (as there's no such thing). |
Very true. I don't know why people bow to RMS he surely does defend OpenSource and thats good but what he makes other than making a fool out of himself going to an ATI conference and trying to make a riot out of it. So good that a poliece man took him out of there. A riot is never the best option you can't preassure companies that way. Sooner or later those companies will realize if GNU/Linux is of value enough to be paid even more attention.
IMHO I think that will happen with a lot of companies and they are going to be more Linux oriented.
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