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Naib
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
Also FTFA

Quote:
But he said Mrs Rees still maintained Myles was forced to play the part of a monkey, whereas the school said he had chosen the role.


How did you not see that at the start of the sentance?


I am more inclined to believe the School on this matter (ie the kids chose their part) rather then the mother.
She only has an arguement IF he son was forced to be a monkey, they wouldn't of been that stupid

PLUS if the school made all the while kids monkeys (ie not allow any black kids) that is just a racist.
its just some trumped up PC mother trying to make a name for herself
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:
I am more inclined to believe the School on this matter (ie the kids chose their part) rather then the mother.
She only has an arguement IF he son was forced to be a monkey, they wouldn't of been that stupid

PLUS if the school made all the while kids monkeys (ie not allow any black kids) that is just a racist.
its just some trumped up PC mother trying to make a name for herself


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The Support Against Racist Incidents Charity Ltd (S.A.R.I) was started by a group of people who had experienced racial harassment and were dissatisfied with the response from mainstream agencies. They identified a need for an independent agency which could support victims of racial harassment and establish a system to enable incidents of racial harassment to be recorded and monitored
Support for victims of racial harassment is provided through advice, advocacy and counselling along with taking action against perpetrators through working in collaboration with agencies such as the police, housing providers and social services.


I beleive these guys over the lawers the school has paid for advice on the correct response.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its a play and their were monkey's in the play and students were to play teh parts in the play
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
If I spent my whole life being called a monkey because I was black, and then my son got cast as a monkey in a school play, then, sure, I'd be offended. Its just a little insensitive. I wouldn't call it racism as it probably wasn't malicious.

Sounds fair enough to me. Its not like she's SUING the school.

could the admins please add the emoticon where smiley hammers his head against the wall to the emoticon choices?
:roll: <--this is simply insufficient, to put it mildly, for posts such as this one.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW.

Mary was Jewish. :P
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:

I beleive these guys over the lawers the school has paid for advice on the correct response.


Why? Have they established their credibility in any other cases?

Also, what do you think the school should have done? Only cast white children as monkeys? hat would have been a racist approach as well, according to some people.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:

No, the trouble with that kind of approach is that eventually, everyone ends up on tippy-toes - terrified to do anything out of fear of offending somebody. Here's an example, a few years back our local council changed Christmas to Winterville out of fear of causing offence to the 'non-Christian' community.

In the example above, the Jewish gal - then it's a play - not a RE session. There's too much of this thinking going on in this country.


With your first point, it may be a little too far. Anecdotally, nowever, I refuse to celebrate christmas as its a christan celebration. I'm agnostic. I can't think of any good reason to celebrate christmas. 'Everyone else is' isn't a good reason. I take offence at religous imagery at christmas and easter.

For your second point, a devinity scene IS a religious education session. Most jewish people take real offence to the symbolism of christianity. Why is it so unreasonable that people not empathise with minority groups.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
For your second point, a devinity scene IS a religious education session. Most jewish people take real offence to the symbolism of christianity. Why is it so unreasonable that people not empathise with minority groups.


'Cause - especially in the current climate, empathy tends to be taken too far and taken advantage of. Remember the recent cartoon incident ?
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
sugar wrote:

I beleive these guys over the lawers the school has paid for advice on the correct response.


Why? Have they established their credibility in any other cases?

Also, what do you think the school should have done? Only cast white children as monkeys? hat would have been a racist approach as well, according to some people.


They should have NOT HAD MONKEYS. As I've already said, there was no need for it. Its OBVIOUS that someone could have taken offense to it. Its so glaring its not funny. They could have had Lemurs* or something instead.

* I know SOME lemurs were primates, but I'm not sure if they are considered monkeys. Someone could enlighten me if they could
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
For your second point, a devinity scene IS a religious education session. Most jewish people take real offence to the symbolism of christianity. Why is it so unreasonable that people not empathise with minority groups.


In some respects, I'd argue that it isn't - if I don't believe in a given faith, then it's just theatre to me. Anyway - I'd certainly disagree with forcing anyone into a situation like that. However in the case above, the kid wasn't forced.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:

With your first point, it may be a little too far. Anecdotally, nowever, I refuse to celebrate christmas as its a christan celebration. I'm agnostic. I can't think of any good reason to celebrate christmas. 'Everyone else is' isn't a good reason. I take offence at religous imagery at christmas and easter.


Why? Unless they heckle you about it, or sing songs loudly outside your house, you shouldn't be offended by them. Religious imagery, at least Christian, is not scandalous enough to be offended by.

sugar wrote:

For your second point, a devinity scene IS a religious education session. Most jewish people take real offence to the symbolism of christianity.


It is an old story! Not some devious trick to turn your child Christian. Besides, most children spend more time with their parents than acting in school plays. They are far more vulnerable to the parents' religious propaganda than that of the school.

sugar wrote:

Why is it so unreasonable that people not empathise with minority groups.


Because matters that do not deserve empathy should not receive it. Being in the minority has nothing to do with it.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:


'Cause - especially in the current climate, empathy tends to be taken too far and taken advantage of. Remember the recent cartoon incident ?


There's a 20 page thread on that. BOTH sides lacked empathy. One more than the other IMHO. It wasn't the Danes.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vesselin wrote:
sugar wrote:
If I spent my whole life being called a monkey because I was black, and then my son got cast as a monkey in a school play, then, sure, I'd be offended. Its just a little insensitive. I wouldn't call it racism as it probably wasn't malicious.

Sounds fair enough to me. Its not like she's SUING the school.

could the admins please add the emoticon where smiley hammers his head against the wall to the emoticon choices?
:roll: <--this is simply insufficient, to put it mildly, for posts such as this one.


I want the same emoticon for THIS post.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
There's a 20 page thread on that. BOTH sides lacked empathy. One more than the other IMHO. It wasn't the Danes.



That's what I'm getting at, there's lack of tolerance, and what we seem to have spreading in this country - a sense of 'you can't say/do/think * that' it may offend somebody.

(* delete as appropriate)
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaosite wrote:
BTW.

Mary was Jewish. :P


So was Jesus! lol
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
runningwithscissors wrote:
sugar wrote:

I beleive these guys over the lawers the school has paid for advice on the correct response.


Why? Have they established their credibility in any other cases?

Also, what do you think the school should have done? Only cast white children as monkeys? hat would have been a racist approach as well, according to some people.


They should have NOT HAD MONKEYS. As I've already said, there was no need for it. Its OBVIOUS that someone could have taken offense to it. Its so glaring its not funny. They could have had Lemurs* or something instead.

* I know SOME lemurs were primates, but I'm not sure if they are considered monkeys. Someone could enlighten me if they could


Right so yr solution is to ban any play that has monkey's in it?
Let me paint you the converse picture. "The Jungle Book" makes a play and to not cause offence to black they cast the monkeys as white actors, what do you think will happen.

about 10years ago now this black mother kicked up a fuss because she took her son to an audition to play the "milky bar kid" she start citing that it was racist to have only a white kid as the "milky bar kid"
Nestle's solution... go animation and stick with a white kid
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:

Why? Unless they heckle you about it, or sing songs loudly outside your house, you shouldn't be offended by them. Religious imagery, at least Christian, is not scandalous enough to be offended by.


The comments made (even in my own community, here, in New Zealand) made me feel threatened, as a scientist, during the Intelligent Design debate. I don't appreciate religious christmas carols. Or divinity scenes. At the supermarket. I always the west was moving TOWARDS a rationalist ideal, but apparently not.

runningwithscissors wrote:
It is an old story! Not some devious trick to turn your child Christian. Besides, most children spend more time with their parents than acting in school plays. They are far more vulnerable to the parents' religious propaganda than that of the school.


Yes, and reinforcing pride in the coloured community is hard enough to enforce at home. Is the child going to be proud to be to have been in the play when he gets to 16 years old? It will only take one racist comment calling him a monkey to dent any pride he has in himself.

runningwithscissors wrote:
Because matters that do not deserve empathy should not receive it. Being in the minority has nothing to do with it.


And who judges without bias what deserves it? you? me? the school? the mother? If you talk to others in the coloured community, what do they have to say? Its obvious what the charter (non coloured) community has to say by looking as this forum.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:

That's what I'm getting at, there's lack of tolerance, and what we seem to have spreading in this country - a sense of 'you can't say/do/think * that' it may offend somebody.

(* delete as appropriate)


thats a contradiction isn't it? Maybe I've missed something.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naib wrote:

Right so yr solution is to ban any play that has monkey's in it?
Let me paint you the converse picture. "The Jungle Book" makes a play and to not cause offence to black they cast the monkeys as white actors, what do you think will happen.
about 10years ago now this black mother kicked up a fuss because she took her son to an audition to play the "milky bar kid" she start citing that it was racist to have only a white kid as the "milky bar kid"
Nestle's solution... go animation and stick with a white kid


For your first point, I don't see why there needs to be a ban on anything. Just a little forethought. Make sure your teachers are culturally sensitive. If there is any group that needs to be taught that, its the teachers. Thats all.

For your second point, in retrospect, what a PR coup it would have been for Nestle if they DID have a coloured milky bar kid. Anyway, its a corporate/employment/marketing matter. Its not entirely relevant, but an interesting anecdote none the less.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
John-Boy wrote:

That's what I'm getting at, there's lack of tolerance, and what we seem to have spreading in this country - a sense of 'you can't say/do/think * that' it may offend somebody.

(* delete as appropriate)


thats a contradiction isn't it? Maybe I've missed something.


No it's not - the 'you can't say bit' is taken to the n'th degree over here, the play that this thread is about is an example.

This attitude is milked by certain quarters as well.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:
Religious imagery, at least Christian, is not scandalous enough to be offended by.

Well, that is not exactly true. Sure, people that have grown up in christian societies may not notice, but having a person nailed to a cross as imaginery is fairly gore.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:

The comments made (even in my own community, here, in New Zealand) made me feel threatened, as a scientist, during the Intelligent Design debate. I don't appreciate religious christmas carols. Or divinity scenes. At the supermarket. I always the west was moving TOWARDS a rationalist ideal, but apparently not.


How did they 'make' you feel threatened? Did they threaten you with physical injury? As long as the carols are well within normal noise control limits and the scenes of divinity are not hindering your shopping in any way, there really is no reason to be offended.
I myself am disturbed quite frequenty be overzealous devotees who play loud music at 2 in the morning. Unfortunately, I have not been able to register my disapproval as they usually celebrate in significant numbers, and have been known to attack those who object.

sugar wrote:

Yes, and reinforcing pride in the coloured community is hard enough to enforce at home. Is the child going to be proud to be to have been in the play when he gets to 16 years old? It will only take one racist comment calling him a monkey to dent any pride he has in himself.


Okay. I never understood what this whole "pride in the coloured community" thing is all about. It sounds like racism, to be honest. How can you be proud of something you just are? Its not something you have achieved. It is simply a feeling of pride when contrasted with humans of a different colour. Which is racism.

sugar wrote:
And who judges without bias what deserves it? you? me? the school? the mother? If you talk to others in the coloured community, what do they have to say? Its obvious what the charter (non coloured) community has to say by looking as this forum.


Allow me to introduce myself. I am an Indian. Of the kind that are usually coloured brown. And I can judge what treatment that kind of behaviour deserves from me. You are free to hold your own views. The bunch of people who are encouraging the mother's nonsense are not paragons of the "coloured community". They are simply trying to sensationalise a matter in order to create a feeling of guilt, and profit from the feeling just because of who they are.

Quote:

Well, that is not exactly true. Sure, people that have grown up in christian societies may not notice, but having a person nailed to a cross as imaginery is fairly gore.


Hmm. Now that I recall, that did horrify me when I was a child. Especially since I attended a Catholic school. They should get rid of the corpse. The cross is okay.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

John-Boy wrote:

No it's not - the 'you can't say bit' is taken to the n'th degree over here, the play that this thread is about is an example.
This attitude is milked by certain quarters as well.


Thats a matter of opinion!
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sugar wrote:
John-Boy wrote:

No it's not - the 'you can't say bit' is taken to the n'th degree over here, the play that this thread is about is an example.
This attitude is milked by certain quarters as well.


Thats a matter of opinion!


Yes, it is - the only trouble is most tend to share the same opinion. Those with the power to do stuff, pander to the 'OMG you can't say that !!111!!' minority.
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

runningwithscissors wrote:

How did they 'make' you feel threatened? Did they threaten you with physical injury? As long as the carols are well within normal noise control limits and the scenes of divinity are not hindering your shopping in any way, there really is no reason to be offended.
I myself am disturbed quite frequenty be overzealous devotees who play loud music at 2 in the morning. Unfortunately, I have not been able to register my disapproval as they usually celebrate in significant numbers, and have been known to attack those who object.


Devotees?

runningwithscissors wrote:

Okay. I never understood what this whole "pride in the coloured community" thing is all about. It sounds like racism, to be honest. How can you be proud of something you just are? Its not something you have achieved. It is simply a feeling of pride when contrasted with humans of a different colour. Which is racism.


There was a documentary called 'a child of our time' that featured on bbc television. One particular experiement was based on a much larger study (I think! I could be wrong!). Coloured children in english schools were shown pictures of other children of different ethnicities, and asked to indentify which children in the pictures were the best to be friends with, and who was trust worthy. Each coloured child said that the white child in the picture was more trust worthy and better to be friends with. Not other children the same colour as themselves.

Except one. An african american child who's parents activley encouraged him to take pride in being african american. They taught him about Martin Luther King. They taught him about Malcom X. He was also by far the most advanced emotionally and scored highest in slef esteem and confidence tests. A link to a wider discussion is here

[quote="runningwithscissors"... and profit from the feeling just because of who they are.[/quote]

profit by involving a charitable organisation to help them?

runningwithscissors wrote:

The cross is okay.
The same cross that the christans killed millions of Muslims for during the crusades? Alright, the crusades WERE 800 years ago, but some groups identify it as strongly as the swastika.
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