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christel
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:25 pm    Post subject: Gentoo Women Reply with quote

Geek girls are almost the stuff of legend. Women make up only 30% of regular computer users, and as little as 2% of Linux users.

But why should this be the case? The reason for this can be as elusive as the Linux-using women themselves -- for every survey or paper saying that they are not given the same chances or opportunities, there is another one saying exactly the opposite. Lost in the midst of all this controversy, however, is the fact that little if anything is being done to interest women in computing, in Linux, or in Gentoo.

Groups such as the Debian project are seeking to change that. Debian Women[1], founded in 2004, was set up to encourage women to become more involved with Linux. The group maintains an IRC channel and a mailing list for the discussion of technical issues, as well as maintaining a public presence at Linux-related conferences and events. They also run an extensive mentoring program whereby women are paired up with a mentor who will spend the time to help them find answers to their questions, and get to know the distribution, as well as the community and Linux in general. This mentoring program adds a personal element to the process, and helps to guide people towards working more effectively with Linux. Unfortunately though, as the name implies, their efforts focus very much on encouraging their members to use Debian.

The idea was recently floated of starting a similar project for the women of Gentoo, and we would like your thoughts on the matter. Would such a project be welcome within the community, and would people take advantage of it? What would you like to see the project do, and how? Would you volunteer your time and/or money to encourage people, not just women, to use Gentoo, and to mentor and help users?

[1] http://women.alioth.debian.org/

Disclaimer: The above was shamelessly copied from a GWN article about Gentoo Women.

Edit:
For those wishing to discuss this with myself or other Userrel members in "real time," you are most welcome to find us in #gentoo-userrel on irc.freenode.net or dropping us an e-mail to userrel@gentoo.org
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Last edited by christel on Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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G2k
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Who cares about women using Linux? Seriously. If they want to, good. If not, who cares? Just like any other Linux user, if one wants to use Linux, so be it; if one wants to use Windows/Mac, so be it. By making special sections or whatnot devoted to women, not only are you being unfair instead of fair but you're also being degrading to them in my opinion.
And besides, you can't force boys to play with barbies if they don't want to, just like you can't force girls to wrestle or play with swords...well, you get the idea. Drop the idea while it's early, it will save you and others lots of time.
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Carlo
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@G2k: christel probably wants to reach women, who maybe feel shy or not accepted as geeks among a vast majority of men, want to talk about the female aspects of being a geek, build a net of contacts or... <dunno/>. In irc or web forums a user is a user, but there are e.g. the mailinglists (where real names are dominant/preferred) as well. This has not much to do with male users; An operation, plenty of sex hormons and I'm quite sure, christel will accept you, though. :twisted:

Next year in your beloved GWN: Finally - pink colored Gentoo release media!
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Last edited by Carlo on Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TheRAt
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carlo wrote:
Next year in your beloved GWN: Finally - pink colored Gentoo release media!

:)
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheRAt wrote:
Carlo wrote:
Next year in your beloved GWN: Finally - pink colored Gentoo release media!

:)

Girlie Weekly Newsletter?

/me hides for feminist wrath
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TheRAt
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Q-collective wrote:
Girlie Weekly Newsletter?

/me hides for feminist wrath

ROFL !!!
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ufoman
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay! /me likes women using Linux...
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MeitalRules
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got the feeling that christel says that females aren't inteligent enough to get interest with computers, and therefor they need special programs to make them involved with all the computers stuff. I find it insulting.
I really can't undarstand why there aren't a lot of females who interests in computers. maybe it's because of the way that other people treats them. For example reactions like "how come u don't know that? what r u an idiot???" that comes usually from males.
If u think about it, there is a good thing about many males in one place(like linux forums), because that helps me to convince my friends to use linux-they might find a boyfriend there :)
btw i'm not geek!
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slick
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo Women Reply with quote

christel wrote:
The idea was recently floated of starting a similar project for the women of Gentoo, and we would like your thoughts on the matter.


I think the idea is not bad, but find an target will be difficult. My wife is using gentoo too, but she dont interest for the technology behind. Always she is looking for nice wallpapers oder icons who girls like. I think girls attached importance by layout and usebility first. I think intrigue girls for gentoo (or linux in general) with nice themes, skins or like this should be the first target.

sorry for my bad english
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MeitalRules
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:00 am    Post subject: Re: Gentoo Women Reply with quote

slick wrote:


Always she is looking for nice wallpapers oder icons who girls like.



I think that everyone, and it doesn't metter if it is a boy or a girl would like his/hers desktop to be pretty. It's not hard to make it pretty, so why not? From what I saw, boys spend more time in making their desktop special and interesting...
What do u mean by "who girls like"? Like pink wallpapers???
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ToeiRei
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well - from my own experience - I do not dislike a nice desktop. But do not forget that there are some of us (including me) doing more than just changing wallpapers...

Rei
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playfool
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would this not increase the feeling of alienation on the part of the women, they are getting special treatment instead of being accepted on their merits?
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Dralnu
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think its a great idea. The fact that most Linux users are male in itself can be a deterent for some women, and alot of others who may hold an interest may feel like they are going to be ridiculed for such a move by the "non-geeks" of the world around them. I'll all for such a program, and I'll personally offer my help, even if its for someone to point a laugh at :) (seriously, search for me on here and you'll find out I've had more problems with this then a snake swallowing a porcupine backwards). I don't know what help I would be capable of, but hell I'm here, and I figure I might as well do SOMETHING for the community besides leech off the software :-P.

Pretty desktops are nice. When I had SuSe installed, I had a desktop wallpaper that was, guess what, a stream in a forest. Forgot the name of it, downloaded it from the download thing in the KDE (my prefred desktop, since I've had trouble with Gnome) Background window. Alot of wallpapers these days are a bit on the odd side, and I personally am one for something a bit more nature-oriented.

Also, if there are any, any good HOWTOs on serious desktop revamping would be nice to see, since the defaults all get kind of old kind of fast...

christel has my support on this, and it seems like at least (if this thread is any indication) about 70% of the commun will, too.

G2k, understandable point you have, but understand that women think diffrently then men do. I for one couldn't care less what others think about me (I don't. Seriously, getting into an insult war with me is like trying to KO a wrecking ball...), but women are alot more sensitive, and if they feel they are going to be alone, or almost alone, then that will give them a reason to not try it.
I think what christel is trying to do here isn't convert Mac/M$ users to Linux, but to give those interested a foothold into the community.

On a slightly-related note: A bit more in the way of obvious config scripts would be nice, and an extention of the Install Manual would be nice to incorporate basic DE/WM configuration/selection might be needed, since it kind of drops off after initial install...
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sugar
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to be mean, but isn't this discrimination?
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Chaosite
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

playfool wrote:
Would this not increase the feeling of alienation on the part of the women, they are getting special treatment instead of being accepted on their merits?


++

sugar wrote:
I don't want to be mean, but isn't this discrimination?


Yes, this is exactly what it is.
On the other hand, there _IS_ a disturbing lack of females in Linux in general..
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ToeiRei
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

agreed; We're not aliens.

Rei
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chaosite wrote:
sugar wrote:
I don't want to be mean, but isn't this discrimination?


Yes, this is exactly what it is.
On the other hand, there _IS_ a disturbing lack of females in Linux in general..
What a strange viewpoint. Political Correctness taken to its ridiculous extreme. If women want to form a group by women, for women than that's totally fine.

(PS if anyone wants to join my club for 28-year-old-men-with-shoes against PC then drop me a pm)
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Chaosite
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh?

Merriam-Webster wrote:
Main Entry: dis·crim·i·nate
Pronunciation: dis-'kri-m&-"nAt
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): -nat·ed; -nat·ing
Etymology: Latin discriminatus, past participle of discriminare, from discrimin-, discrimen distinction, from discernere to distinguish between -- more at DISCERN
transitive senses
1 a : to mark or perceive the distinguishing or peculiar features of b : DISTINGUISH, DIFFERENTIATE <discriminate hundreds of colors>
2 : to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences; especially : to distinguish from another like object
intransitive senses
1 a : to make a distinction <discriminate among historical sources> b : to use good judgment
2 : to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit <discriminate in favor of your friends> <discriminate against a certain nationality>


We're talking about sense 2, obviously.

Though there isn't much wrong with making such a group... Still, whats the purpose?

Anyway, responding to christel's original post - I do volunteer time to help and mento users. I hang around in #gentoo and answer questions on the forum. No money, but thats because I'm yet another broke student.

I might even try to become a dev if I find an interesting niche for myself...
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carlo wrote:
Next year in your beloved GWN: Finally - pink colored Gentoo release media!
OMG Ponies!!! (sorry, couldn't resist :) )


playfool wrote:
Would this not increase the feeling of alienation on the part of the women, they are getting special treatment instead of being accepted on their merits?

I think that special treatment is necessary at the beginning, before true equality can be reached. Fact is that there aren't many women among Linux users, for whatever reasons. But with a little special treatment (like the proposed mentoring) a few women get aboard, get involved in the community, start feeling comfortable. This gets the ball rolling and then maybe other women join on their own. Meanwhile male users get used to female company, so things like this don't happen (which is probably one of the reasons for the lack of women among Linux users). I don't see any discrimination here.

Also, I agree with ToeiRei, there is such a thing as being overly Politically Correct, up to the point where it becomes absurd.
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leiaz
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a girl, and I don't really see the point of a group for women. As ToeiRei said, we are not aliens. I would feel less comfortable if I was to be treated differently because i'm a woman.
It's good to encourage and help people to use linux, but there is no need for a special program for women, imho.

About desktop and wallpapers : I'm not really into pink ponies :P I currently use this one. But maybe wallpapers with sexy males in gentoo underwear could lead to more women using gentoo ... :oops: :lol:
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playfool
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

leiaz wrote:
I'm a girl, and I don't really see the point of a group for women. As ToeiRei said, we are not aliens. I would feel less comfortable if I was to be treated differently because i'm a woman.
It's good to encourage and help people to use linux, but there is no need for a special program for women, imho.

About desktop and wallpapers : I'm not really into pink ponies :P I currently use this one. But maybe wallpapers with sexy males in gentoo underwear could lead to more women using gentoo ... :oops: :lol:


For the love of gog don't let Cokehabit hear you say that.. he'll take it as encouragement
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DoctorMO
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly there has been some interesting studies done of the comparative behavour of males and 'geek', there seems to be a real tendancy for people with male type brains to be more geeky than female brain types.

None of this means women can't use linux, but because you can't attract the majority of women with geek factor it means we arn't doing our job in attracting people in general.

Attact more women and more men will be using it too.

P.S. I'm middle brained and compleatly insane.
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RuiP
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DoctorMO wrote:
I...
Attact more women and more men will be using it too.

P.S. I'm middle brained and compleatly insane.


sorry,
when you say "Attact more women" do you pretend to say

Attack more women or Attract more women?
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DoctorMO
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah my bad, I meant attract more women.
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The Mad Crapper
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my experience, woman are just much less technical. I have known very few females in technical jobs. (maybe about 2%) When it comes to technology, i think most of them just want it to work- thus, not a very good fix for something like Gentoo.

I think the girls that do like technology and tinkering with their PCs/OS are the few we have that use Linux.

This is just MY observation. I like the idea of female Linux users as much as anyone, but as i learned a long time ago.. Men and Woman are different.

I would be more then willing to help women get involved with Linux, i just don't get the feeling that there are a lot of women shying away from it because it is a mostly populated with male users. I just think most female computer users don't have the interest.
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