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Shadow Skill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So because it works for you that means it has achieved its goal for everyone else? Oh come on creating a seperate ebuild is only an option if you understand HOW it is done to begin with. For the end user who has no understanding of how to make an ebuild or any other package definition type or binary for that matter the tool or tools have failed miserably. The term 'metadistribution' is nothing more than a buzz word people use so that they can put thier head in the sand and pretend that everything is just fine. It doesn't describe anything that is different from an of the other 100+ distros out there that are not designed for specialized systems [router hardware, embedded stuff.] its just a different label for the same thing that these other distros are that people dreamed up as an escape route hoping that enough people would buy into the BS and be silent. It is perfectly fine that you are able to make an ebuild to get around a situation but it in no way invalidates the point I was making to the last poster. Its true that software is not perfect but it is an entirely different matter when you keep seeing the same type of problem over and over and over again and the only thing people want to do is claim that thier software solves that issue or creates something where there was nothing before.

No one is going to tell me not to have an opinion about whether or not a piece of software is able to get the job done nor will I be idle while someone tells another person not to have an opinion about something because everything that a group of people does is good and right overall. Sure there are people who have complaints that do not have any merit but this thread and quite a few others is not one of them. Gentoo's developers are addressing at least a few of the issues with Portage [The speed increase with syncing was a most welcome improvement.] and I personally have very few problems with Gentoo itself and overall I do think they do a very good job. However I am not about to sit here and just say everything is ok because they [Developers in general] keep wanting me to believe that [Just like Microsoft]despite the things that I have happen to my box or hear about happening to other people's boxes.


Oh and btw Aidan in case you have not realized this in the real world there are other people who have jobs to do that take more time and more effort than that of a developers. Developers are not the end all and be all of the real world, and I am really tiered of appologists constantly blaiming the end user for these problems when the developers were the ones who introduced them into the equasion. The developers want everyone to know how hard they work as if none of the end users have jobs or other difficult things to do in thier lives, then they just keep peddling more and more broken concepts/programs and then they get all flustered when someone has enough balls to call them on it. I have seen important sounding warnings etc be blown away by Portage's output train numerous times how can the primary tool just blow away these warnings like that? Who is at fault here because they didn't chase down another website in order to find out exactly what has changed in various programs possibly because they were not even aware of thier existence to begin with? According to apologists such as your self everything is the fault of the end user with absolutely no responsibility on the part of the person or persons who either created the program or are responsible for maintaining it in the package tree. It is the end users fault if they do not read instructions on how to use a program however if the program is poorly documented or the documentation is unclear this is the fault of the developer or whoever wrote the documentation NO ONE ELSE and sure as hell not the end user.

Ps. Since you can't seem to read I was talking more in general terms about the need for people to stop making ten thousand exscuses for developers I wasn't really focusing on this specific issue. You could also just not read the thread if you don't like it so much.
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Last edited by Shadow Skill on Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Skill wrote:
...but it in no way invalidates the point I was making to the last poster.

You had a point?.. sorry I must have missed it, in all your rants and ramblings, how does it in any way associate with the httpd.conf being unified inline with upstream apache maintainers?

Shadow Skill wrote:
Gentoo's developers are addressing at least a few of the issues with Portage [The speed increase with syncing was a most welcome improvement.] and I personally have very few problems with Gentoo itself and overall I do think they do a very good job.

Then what in the name of God are you rambling on about?

If you think being a software developer is easy and you can write perfect code first time, fine, be my guest. If you somehow manage it you'll be the Einstein of the computer science field. Saying that even Einstein made mistakes.

Right now I'm seriously pissed off with the Mozilla devs ignoring the gigantic memory leaks in Firefox, but I'm not going to go flood their forums and bugzilla with incoherent garbage, thats not going to help anything. What I do have is choice, a) track down the leaks and plug em, then submit a bug with the patch. b) put up with the imperfect memory system, or c) to change browser.

See what I'm getting at?
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Shadow Skill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

AidanJT wrote:
Shadow Skill wrote:
...but it in no way invalidates the point I was making to the last poster.

You had a point?.. sorry I must have missed it, in all your rants and ramblings, how does it in any way associate with the httpd.conf being unified inline with upstream apache maintainers?

Shadow Skill wrote:
Gentoo's developers are addressing at least a few of the issues with Portage [The speed increase with syncing was a most welcome improvement.] and I personally have very few problems with Gentoo itself and overall I do think they do a very good job.

Then what in the name of God are you rambling on about?

If you think being a software developer is easy and you can write perfect code first time, fine, be my guest. If you somehow manage it you'll be the Einstein of the computer science field. Saying that even Einstein made mistakes.

Right now I'm seriously pissed off with the Mozilla devs ignoring the gigantic memory leaks in Firefox, but I'm not going to go flood their forums and bugzilla with incoherent garbage, thats not going to help anything. What I do have is choice, a) track down the leaks and plug em, then submit a bug with the patch. b) put up with the imperfect memory system, or c) to change browser.

See what I'm getting at?
LOL you didn'teven realize that I was responding DIRECTLY to Curtis..................The first word I even said in my post on page ten of this thread was Curtis, I mean I said his NAME so you would think I was talking directly to him. His post was not even really talking about the config problem with apache his post was more general about the "complaints" overall rather than those raised specifically in THIS thread.
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Last edited by Shadow Skill on Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:16 am; edited 1 time in total
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aidanjt
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Skill wrote:
LOL you didn'teven realize that I was responding DIRECTLY to Curtis..................


Actually I did realise that fact. And I, in turn made a reply to your public posting.
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curtis119
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Skill wrote:
So because it works for you that means it has achieved its goal for everyone else? Oh come on creating a seperate ebuild is only an option if you understand HOW it is done to begin with. For the end user who has no understanding of how to make an ebuild or any other package definition type or binary for that matter the tool or tools have failed miserably.


A-Ha! So that is the reason you are ranting like this. You have no clue how Gentoo actually works under the hood and need someone to hold your hand. If you (or any other user) don't understand that stuff then you have no reason to be using Gentoo in the first place unless you are trying to learn it to begin with because writing your own ebuild *IS* something you should know how to do if you want to be a true Gentoo admin. Gentoo isn't meant for people with no fucking clue. It is meant for people who know what they are doing or want to learn how to do it. While you are learning you should expect some errors. If you don't want to learn and just want a computer OS that Just Works(tm) then use Windows or Ubuntu or Suse or something and leave the rest of us alone.
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Shadow Skill
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No you didn't Aidan otherwise you wouldn't have opened your mouth and said what you said previously since nothing about what I said was directed at the apache issue but instead directly to the line of thinking that Curtis was exhibiting. I never said software development was easy but there is a difference between a bug which is something unintentional and a broken design being passed off as a great feature. Me screwing up a sql query and getting cartesian products in the results that is a bug, me creating a database system for use by a music player that does not properly respect the criteria of a given query and then telling the end user its "supposed to do that" despite the fact that NO OTHER SOFTWARE [or hardware device in some cases] OF A SIMILLAR TYPE AND FEATURE SET DOES THAT EVER..that is me trying to pass off a sack of crap as a sack of gold. That is the difference here excellent software has bugs sure but the things that do work, work very well and are very reliable and the developers don't try to pass off bad things as the end users fault when they are not or as features when end users call them on it.

I am pretty sure there were people in Microsoft who didn't want the system to just default to administrator powers but the powers that be at Microsoft decided that they were going to do things in that way and hope no one noticed, behold the results. That is what I am trying to get at here the end user is going to have a [sometimes negative] opinion about a tool but no one has the right to tell them to not express it when these same developers are notorious for producing software that propagates bad concepts whilst not empowering thier users by making information readily accessible or just covering thier ears when the users try to tell the developers that something they are doing is not so great.


Curtis this is not about holding someones hand or whatever other kind of crap you feel like dreaming up here so you can run away from the real issue. What I am getting at is simply that:

1. Not everyone is a programmer just like not everyone is an accountant or a lawyer or a doctor. You cannot expect every single person to be able to code in every single language there is and then patch code themsleves in order to get things going, you also cannot expect scripting in Bash to be something that everyone is able to understand even if they do happen to be able to code at all. [I have never really been able to find any good documentation on how to go about scripting in bash like I have been able to find with Ruby but I do keep my eyes out as bash scripting is something i would like to pick up eventually.]

Personally I have never really needed to make my own ebuild if I run into an app I want that isn't in the tree I just build it the manual way and be done with it so I have not felt an urgent need to take the time to learn how an ebuild is made.

2. Not everyone who uses Gentoo or any other distro has the time because of other things they need or want to accomplish to devote hours and hours to making thier distro behave properly. If I really had that time I would just install LFS which is even more intimate than Gentoo. However this is not the reason I or many other people probably use Gentoo I use it because it gets in my way the least.

You can run around screaming about how anyone who does not worship Gentoo's developers should just go away and does not want to learn about thier system so you can continue blinking in lock step but that does not actually change reality. I do not have alot of problems with Gentoo at all [Its been the most functional of pretty much every distro I have tried.] but I don't like to see someone telling another person to shut up just because they do not have the same issue that another individual has. I have reported bugs and had the people replying to the bug report make sly remarks instead of simply asking for clarification of the problem but I didn't come on here and complain about it or even respond crossly in the bug report itself I merely provided more information and got the bug reopened. But you would have me just say everything is wonderful, because you don't like to hear dissent from your own line of thinking. You have to accuse others of effectively not being 1337 enough because you would prefer to put your head in the sand and hide. In your situation Gentoo allowed you to continue work with very little inconvinience, but how does that make what happend to people in this thread a fulfillment of the Gentoo philosophy? It is good that the application of the stated philosophy worked out for you but that just means that in this instance here the philosophy did not work out and it and other issues that cause the philosophy to not be realized should be looked at so that Portage can be made to comply with the stated philosophy of Gentoo. In short my point to that poster still stands and the idea of a metadistribution does not provide an escape from that period.
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curtis119
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never said you had to worship the devs. I sure don't. In fact, I dislike several of them intensely (and I'm sure a few don't like me either).

It's plain to see that we will never agree about the other issues. So be it. Gentoo is what you make of it and I made quite a few shiny things out of it. Sorry if it doesn't work the way you want out of the box but that's just the way it is. Honestly, the only way you are going to get what you want is to A) become a dev and do it yourself. B) convince some existing dev to do it for you. Good Luck!
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not saying Gentoo does not work for me all I am saying is that instead of shouting at people because they dpn't think every single aspect of Gentoo is wonderful we should take a step back and try and see if what someone is saying has any truth to it. I'm just tired of people having absolutely impossible expectations of the end users while doing thier best to not expect anything from the manufacturer [unless they are Microsoft.] I also don't like seeing people expect absolute perfection from coders because that is not possible either. But I see way too often manufacturers avoid taking responsibility for the situations they create for the end users and instead try to shift all responsibility on to the end users. We say the end user has to read the manual or other documentation yet the documentation is so awful 90% of the time save some really, REALLY shining examples such as the Gentoo install documentation and to a lesser extent the Zsh manual. [Although it has some really good online resources.] Those are two examples where if you do read those manuals you probably will come out with at least some understanding of wth you need to do to get to your goal. But the majority of the time manuals are so badly written that one is better off just experimenting with the program [or other electronic product, those manuals are just as bad most of the time.] or piece of hardware and figuring out what to do based on trial and error. If someone were to say that the documentation for Linux in general is very bad those of us who respond to such a statement should respond calmly to the person without letting our ability to understand said manuals [after months or even years of being immersed in them.] lead us to believe that somehow the person making such a statement is lazy or wants things handed to them in any way and respond with that type of mind set.

We have to have enough strength to admit when things do actually suck even if it does not directly affect us as individual users.[This is not just in computers but in life in general.]We shouldn't let manufacturers tell us that they are doing something when there is no evidence that they are actually doing what they said they are based on what happens as we use the products. I think this is what has made the landscape what it is today with regards to how software is built of Linux and how things end up interacting as far as the users are concerned. Just look at binary distros and there horribly shot systems that make it unwise for a user to install programs from source code [depending on how the dependencies work out.] yet every other new distro or package management tool that comes out claims to end dependency hell while just omitting that they have no way to handle source code and binary mixing gracefully which is an aspect of dependency hell.

Even Portage expresses the core of this problem although it is MUCH easier to maintain system sanity with Portage [I install manually all the time and it Just fucking works :D...Its probably the main thing keeping Gentoo on this box since the only other thing close is straight freebsd and I reaaallly, don't feel like being a complete n00b again for a few months if Gentoo is being relatively well behaved.] its still a bit tricky if something you install outside of Portage and some apps you installed via portage depend on it. [Yes I know I could just write an ebuild but ./configure is simpler, and I have lots of trouble wrapping my head around Bash scripting let alone ebuild scripting sue me. Besides package managers should not be dependant on the users use of a specific type of binary or build script to keep things running smoothly; anything you install however you install it should be detectable by the tools as long as you point it in the correct direction so to speak but I digress.] But I try to look at things from the viewpoint of the person dissatisfied with Portage without becoming agrivated or shouting them down because I have learned over time that when people post things like that there usually is some bit of truth to what they say and I try to keep those sorts of things in mind as I go through my own studies and try to teach myself a language and start small house keeping projects as exercises to further my own understanding.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadow Skill wrote:
its still a bit tricky if something you install outside of Portage and some apps you installed via portage depend on it. [Yes I know I could just write an ebuild but ./configure is simpler, and I have lots of trouble wrapping my head around Bash scripting let alone ebuild scripting sue me. Besides package managers should not be dependant on the users use of a specific type of binary or build script to keep things running smoothly; anything you install however you install it should be detectable by the tools as long as you point it in the correct direction

/etc/portage/package.provided
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree that Gentoo is not perfect and never will be (Humans created it afterall). User feedback and suggestions are welcomed with open arms. As long as you keep in mind that the chances of your suggestion being implemented are slim to none depending on the amount of time it will take and which dev will be doing it and how important that dev ranks it on his/her list of priorities.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

curtis119 wrote:
chances of your suggestion being implemented are slim to none


People are flaming of course from all sides. But you're a "moderator." What are the chances that the moderators might attempt to be, well, more moderate?

While there have been flame wars since at least the invention of BBS systems and e-mail, am I the only "old-timer" who sees the level of civility dropping away rapidly in large areas of the free software movement? It used to be that it attracted a higher proportion of people who appreciate cooperation and sharing and helping each other. Now the Gentoo ranks have been swarmed by relative noobs who operate by some other ethic entirely - all about ego and one-upmanship that's measured in shouting loudest rather than grace and generosity of contribution.

Who moderates the moderators? We're far past the days when if I had a kernel problem I could get help from Alan Cox, or a PHP question I could correspond with Rasmus about it. But damn it the founding members of the movement we're all swept up in were both kinder and smarter than so many of the kids now doing the downstream packaging - whether in Gentoo or Debian or whatever. If your contribution is sufficient, you don't need to puff your ego by harshly putting people down.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll agree that the devs/moderators that exist today don't match the guys that used to respond on the RHML many moons ago, but then again, the user base isn't the same either.

Back when I first started using Linux, there was a universal understanding: you need to know what you're doing. There was an expectation that to be a user of Linux, you needed to put forth the effort to fully comprehend what you were working with. This led to much more open dialogue, because both sides understood each other.

Fast forward to today. Much of the user base we have now seem to have a very skewed expectation of what Linux is/isn't. The sense of entitlement is apparent in some of the posts we see here on the forums. "OMG WHY DOESN'T IS JUST WORK?!?!?!?!?!!?". I think the user base has become much more demanding, and therefore the devs/moderators have responded in kind.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

whit wrote:
curtis119 wrote:
chances of your suggestion being implemented are slim to none


People are flaming of course from all sides. But you're a "moderator." What are the chances that the moderators might attempt to be, well, more moderate?

While there have been flame wars since at least the invention of BBS systems and e-mail, am I the only "old-timer" who sees the level of civility dropping away rapidly in large areas of the free software movement? It used to be that it attracted a higher proportion of people who appreciate cooperation and sharing and helping each other. Now the Gentoo ranks have been swarmed by relative noobs who operate by some other ethic entirely - all about ego and one-upmanship that's measured in shouting loudest rather than grace and generosity of contribution.

Who moderates the moderators? We're far past the days when if I had a kernel problem I could get help from Alan Cox, or a PHP question I could correspond with Rasmus about it. But damn it the founding members of the movement we're all swept up in were both kinder and smarter than so many of the kids now doing the downstream packaging - whether in Gentoo or Debian or whatever. If your contribution is sufficient, you don't need to puff your ego by harshly putting people down.

Way to bring up an old post from over a year ago.
I bet you feel special.

Despite your contribution to the original topic being a big zero of course.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No need to revive really old threads and quote people out of context.
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