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iainvt
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much simpler to extract the prebuilt package, move the individual files to relevant places - /usr/bin /usr/share etc, then emerge netscape-flash and scan in plug section and presto!
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taskara
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey iainvt

Sorry!

The command should be

Code:
emerge -avk nsplugins


NOT -b

b is for build (which is what I used to make it), k is for use a binary package.

please try that and let me know!
-c
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fantastic, worked a treat, any of the prebuilt opengl screen savers and then this is perfect, or should I just emerge them?
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

iainvt wrote:
fantastic, worked a treat, any of the prebuilt opengl screen savers and then this is perfect, or should I just emerge them?

Goodness ;) it's not included, but thanks for the suggestion.

For now you'll have to emerge them yourself ;)

I only use a blank screensaver :D hehe

-c
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zend
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how can I get GNOME as default windows manager without install KDE
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Bob P
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congrats on your project. I'd like to interject a few comments though.

The Jackass! Toolkit doesn't use LDFLAGS because they are widely known to break things, as people in this thread seem to have noted. With the current versions of GCC such flags are known troublemakers and have been intentionally omitted from the Jackass! toolkit in the interest of system stability.

I don't think that its quite fair to Jackass! to say that your package is Jackass!-based when your package replaces the stable, tested, and bulletproof Jackass! Toolkit with an alternate version that has been less extensively tested and implements flags that are known to be unstable and break installations, thereby trading off stability for an equivocal incremental performance gain.

Going one step further, if you're running -Os optimizations on a P3 installation instead of -O3 optimizations, you have also made changes to the toolkit that effect performance.

So it seems that you've deviated from the Jackass! toolkit in a couple of ways. first, you've made changes that adversely effect stability by implementing LDFLAGS. Second, you've made changes that adversely effect performance by replacing -O3 optimizations with -Os optimizations while tailoring your product for the one CPU that is perhaps best equipped to accomodate them.

I have to admit, I've been following your project for a while, and being the person who's more familiar with Jackass! than anyone else, I have to admit that I am confused about Kororaa's purported Jackass! derivations. The details provided on your home page aren't particularly detailed or clear, and after reading it I feel like I'm no more well informed than I was before I read it. I would guess that if I'm confused by it, people who are less familiar with Jackass! than its developer have to be confused by it as well. I wish you the best of luck with your project, but perhaps it is most accurate not to refer to Kororaa as being Jackass!-based.

Regardless of whether or not one thinks that people should know better than to come to the Jackass! Project for support, it doesn't help The Jackass! Project or its users if something that isn't really Jackass!-derived is being represented as being Jackass! derived. The Jackass! trademark was established to specifically identify the Jackass! product in order to avoid confusing situations like this.

Best of luck with Kororaa.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Slalomsk8er wrote:
Code:
media-video/nvidia-kernel-1.0.6629-r4
media-video/nvidia-glx-1.0.6629-r6

Code:
name of display: :0.0
display: :0  screen: 0
direct rendering: Yes
server glx vendor string: NVIDIA Corporation
server glx version string: 1.3
server glx extensions:
    GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig,
    GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, GLX_SGI_video_sync, GLX_SGI_swap_control,
    GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_NV_float_buffer
client glx vendor string: NVIDIA Corporation
client glx version string: 1.3
client glx extensions:
    GLX_ARB_get_proc_address, GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_EXT_visual_info,
    GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_EXT_import_context, GLX_SGI_video_sync,
    GLX_NV_swap_group, GLX_NV_video_out, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig, GLX_SGIX_pbuffer,
    GLX_SGI_swap_control, GLX_NV_float_buffer
GLX extensions:
    GLX_EXT_visual_info, GLX_EXT_visual_rating, GLX_SGIX_fbconfig,
    GLX_SGIX_pbuffer, GLX_SGI_video_sync, GLX_SGI_swap_control,
    GLX_ARB_multisample, GLX_NV_float_buffer, GLX_ARB_get_proc_address
OpenGL vendor string: NVIDIA Corporation
OpenGL renderer string: GeForce FX 5600/AGP/SSE/3DNOW!
OpenGL version string: 1.5.2 NVIDIA 66.29
OpenGL extensions:
    GL_ARB_depth_texture, GL_ARB_fragment_program,
    ...

    ...
glu version: 1.3
glu extensions:
    GLU_EXT_nurbs_tessellator, GLU_EXT_object_space_tess

   visual  x  bf lv rg d st colorbuffer ax dp st accumbuffer  ms  cav
 id dep cl sp sz l  ci b ro  r  g  b  a bf th cl  r  g  b  a ns b eat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
0x21 24 tc  0 32  0 r  y  .  8  8  8  0  4 24  8 16 16 16 16  0 0 None
...


I think I found the source of it.
As I am toying with the kernel I compiled the nvidiafb and X refused to work on my kernel too.
Is the nvidiafb compiled in kororaa?

Hey, no, only vesa fb is compiled into the kernel under the Kororaa sources.
I am running version nvidia-kernel-1.0.7676
Could you try this version and let me know if it still works / doesn't work
6629 is quite old and your issue may be lack of decent kernel support for 2.6.12/13

Slalomsk8er wrote:

What about the Font problem?

Oh yeah, sorry forgot that one.
I get that error too, so I'm not sure why. Can you try changing the font for that terminal?
I only ever use "Shell" instead of "Linux Console" so I never discovered that issue.. thanks!
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taskara
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zend wrote:
how can I get GNOME as default windows manager without install KDE

Hi zend,
the Kororaa install comes ONLY with KDE. If you want Gnome you will need to install it yourself manually.
There is no way to NOT install KDE under the Kororaa method, unless you hack the code (which you're free to do).
Sorry! That's the sort of limitation a pre-configured binary install gives you. However I am thinking about a Gnome version if it is popular enough.

Cheers
-c
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
Congrats on your project. I'd like to interject a few comments though.

The Jackass! Toolkit doesn't use LDFLAGS because they are widely known to break things, as people in this thread seem to have noted. With the current versions of GCC such flags are known troublemakers and have been intentionally omitted from the Jackass! toolkit in the interest of system stability.
Duely noted.

I don't think that its quite fair to Jackass! to say that your package is Jackass!-based when your package replaces the stable, tested, and bulletproof Jackass! Toolkit with an alternate version that has been less extensively tested and implements flags that are known to be unstable and break installations, thereby trading off stability for an equivocal incremental performance gain.

Going one step further, if you're running -Os optimizations on a P3 installation instead of -O3 optimizations, you have also made changes to the toolkit that effect performance.

So it seems that you've deviated from the Jackass! toolkit in a couple of ways. first, you've made changes that adversely effect stability by implementing LDFLAGS. Second, you've made changes that adversely effect performance by replacing -O3 optimizations with -Os optimizations while tailoring your product for the one CPU that is perhaps best equipped to accomodate them.

I have to admit, I've been following your project for a while, and being the person who's more familiar with Jackass! than anyone else, I have to admit that I am confused about Kororaa's purported Jackass! derivations. The details provided on your home page aren't particularly detailed or clear, and after reading it I feel like I'm no more well informed than I was before I read it. I would guess that if I'm confused by it, people who are less familiar with Jackass! than its developer have to be confused by it as well. I wish you the best of luck with your project, but perhaps it is most accurate not to refer to Kororaa as being Jackass!-based.

Regardless of whether or not one thinks that people should know better than to come to the Jackass! Project for support, it doesn't help The Jackass! Project or its users if something that isn't really Jackass!-derived is being represented as being Jackass! derived. The Jackass! trademark was established to specifically identify the Jackass! product in order to avoid confusing situations like this.

Best of luck with Kororaa.


Dear Bob,

It's an honour sir! Firstly thank YOU for the Jackass! project, and secondly for your comments here.
You are absolutely correct, and thanks again for your input - I value it greatly.

In short, I would like to stress that I was in no way intending to suggest that Kororaa was a completely unmodified install of Jackass!, however it appears this has been the interpretation. I guess more to the point, Kororaa was based on the idea of the Jackass! install, not so much an exact install of it (as previously mentioned in this thread).
I have mentioned it to give you guys a plug, but I can see that it may be giving the wrong impression and I'm truly sorry if that is creating a bad image for your project. I will change the wording immediately.

The Kororaa install is still Beta, so there is plenty of time to change things. Perhaps, if you are interested, I could work more closely with the Jackass! project for the beta2 (and subsequent) releases.

Thank you for your input re the selection of FLAGS. I did run as thorough tests as I could of the system, and this was a good way to get it out there for people to test.
So far I don't think anyone has had any stability issues with any application, but then again we haven't had that much feedback yet.

I understand now what nightmorph was trying to say.
I hope this all explains my position, and if you have any further concerns / suggestions please don't hesitate to let me know.

Thanks again! And all the best with Jackass! 8)

Cheers,
Chris
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep up the work -- I'm most impressed with the installer, even though it still needs the things mentioned in this thread. I checked out the code, and it looks pretty nice.

I'm not at all a KDE person, but once this project comes further along, I'll see about getting a free partition or an external HD (need to have one, anyway) and maybe try it out.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

it looks like you're taking gentoo down a path that we had originally considered with Jackass! 2005.0, namely, releasing pre-built packages that have been built with an optimized toolkit. Ryan (Sith_Happens) and I had originally considered doing that with the 2005.0 release of Jackass!

our idea was that since the Jackass! toolkit was so much better on old processors than the standard Gentoo GCC 3.3.4 toolkit, it really made sense to try to build optimized packages for the users. i had originally envisioned Jackass! as a way to leverage the performance of Gentoo on older architectures -- the performance increases were so marked with older processors that it really made sense to build a fully optimized system from the ground-up. the whole Stage 1/3 thing proved that a purpose-built toolkit could really breathe a new breath of life into the older hardware that was otherwise headed toward the landfill. the one thing that was missing from this approach was the pre-built packages that "soften" the "gentoo experience" for people using older hardware.

Gentoo's pre-built packages were all built with the conservative CFLAG settings and the run-of-the-mill GCC 3.3.4 toolkit. our idea was that if we used the high-performance Jackass! 2005.0 toolkit to pre-build some of the major pain-in-the-butt packages such as Xorg and KDE, that would REALLY help the users of older hardware. we had originally envisioned building separate, complete package CDs including KDE, X, and Gnome for each of the architectures supported by Jackass!

the problem with this approach was that the thorough testing of Jackass! took ALOT longer than we had anticipated, and we were getting burned-out by the time that it was ready for release. i specifically remember the night that i was compiling packages for the pentium version of the packages CD, and ran into problems with some of the ebuilds. as i beat my head against the monitor, i realized just how much trouble the packages CD was going to be, so i made the unilateral decision to axe the packages CDs out of the Jackass! 2005.0 release. that didn't bother Ryan a bit.

with Jackass! 2005.1 i had thought about revisiting the packages CD idea, but i decided to pass on it because i was working on Jackass! 2005.1 all by myself and i already had my hands full.

so i guess it should be obvious that i'm glad to see that somebody has decided to pick-up with a similar idea where i had left off when i was chopping-off parts of the Jackass! Project that were just too much for me to handle. personally, i think its a GREAT idea to provide a packages CD that has a set of fully compiled binaries that have been built with an optimized toolkit. i wish that i had followed through with the idea, but considering how much time and effort it would have taken to build packages CDs for 8 different architectures, there's just no way that i could do it.

i think that your project is a great idea. one of the things that's made it manageable for you is that you've limited it to one architecture. i think that the choice of P3 as the cutoff was a good one. i don't know if you've noticed this or not, but i've recently decided to tailor the future versions of Jackass! to be limited to P3 and up.

so i'm happy to see that you've taken on part of the project that was just too big for me to handle. its a great idea, and its something that i think will really benefit the Gentoo community. i'd be happy to offer whatever ideas i can offer if you'd like some input from other people on the project.

as far as those optimizations that we had talked about earlier are concerned, i honestly feel that anyone would be hard-pressed to find any sets of CFLAGS that would outperform those that we've settled on in the Stage 1/3 threads. when i did the groundwork for the whole Stage 1/3 thing, i compiled LOTS of versions of the toolkit on an ARMY of PCs in my lab for testing purposes. i did a fair amount of benchmarking, and i couldn't find anything that would consistently outperform the flags used in the Stage 1/3 Guides. so i guess i'd have to say that i'm a little biased in recommending that if you want a good combination of stable flags that provide high performance, those that we've been using in the Stage 1/3 threads (and the ones that went into Jackass!) are the ones i'd recommend.

personally, i would love to be able to download a packages CD that is similar to the Gentoo packages CDs, but is instead built with a better toolkit. when we were first working on Jackass!, we made a conscious decision to make Jackass! 2005.0 a 100% Gentoo-compatible drop-in replacement for the Gentoo stage 3 tarballs. we had also planned on building a 100% Gentoo-compatible drop-in replacement for the Gentoo packages CDs that were purpose-built for each architecture and were a drop-in replacement for the Gentoo packages CDs. we wanted to choose this approach for a couple of reasons: first, we wanted to maintain 100% Gentoo drop-in compatability. second, it absolved me of the need to continue writing documentation, which is a drudge.

so if i had unlimited time and resources, that's how i'd approach the subject. rather than building something entirely different, i'm trying to build things that accentuate Gentoo and tend to integrate seamlessly with the way that Gentoo is distributed. that softens the learning curve for everyone, and it optimizes what you get out of the time that you put in.

just my two cents. :wink:
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
Keep up the work -- I'm most impressed with the installer, even though it still needs the things mentioned in this thread. I checked out the code, and it looks pretty nice.

I'm not at all a KDE person, but once this project comes further along, I'll see about getting a free partition or an external HD (need to have one, anyway) and maybe try it out.

Awwww go on ;) IMO KDE can be very powerful if built right. Have you used Konqueror? I love it. It's my browser, sftp, ssh, remote html editting app, local file all in one application (seemlessly manage files with tabs and split windows whether remote or local) :) it's the best! (though I use firefox for day to day browsing)
And I think the applications I included for the install are simply brilliant - kate is an amazing text editor esp for programming (the installer was written using kate), amarok is amazing - better than iTunes!, k3b kills all other gui cd burning apps out there, kaffeine is brilliant - it plays all movie formats like divx and wmv, dvds, vcd, streaming, plugins, even TV! ;)

If you keep an eye on the thread I'll let everyone know if I release a DVD version that also has Gnome ;)

Cheers
-c
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
it looks like you're taking gentoo down a path that we had originally considered with Jackass! 2005.0, namely, releasing pre-built packages that have been built with an optimized toolkit. Ryan (Sith_Happens) and I had originally considered doing that with the 2005.0 release of Jackass!

[snip]

so if i had unlimited time and resources, that's how i'd approach the subject. rather than building something entirely different, i'm trying to build things that accentuate Gentoo and tend to integrate seamlessly with the way that Gentoo is distributed. that softens the learning curve for everyone, and it optimizes what you get out of the time that you put in.

just my two cents. :wink:


Hi Bob,

Thanks again for your reply - what you have mentioned is almost exactly what I've been envisioning for a few years now. I actually started work on an installer about a year ago, but I was flooded with with work and couldn't continue. Now due to my change of work roles I am a lot more free to do as I please ('cause I run a few IT companies now).

I had been following Jackass!, well stage 1 from 3 ;), for a long time and had built many systems with it - it seemed to perfectly compliment the idea of Kororaa. Hence that's why I chose to build the toolkit that way, entirely to your credit.

Also, in regards to the CFLAGS, I totally agree with you - that is why the CFLAGS are the default from Jackass! (to the best of my knowledge), except that I changed -O3 to -Os.
The reason I did this was two fold - I knew it was going to be used on older equipment and smaller binaries = better for old machines with slow hdds and low memory.
Secondly, I needed to fit as much on a single CD as I could! And as you can see it all just fits at 695mb ;)
Mind you perhaps I used an older Jackass! set of CFLAGS? I don't know. Although I did lots of testing, tweaking and re-arranging, I was pretty sure I kept it as you guys suggested.

I did add LDFLAGS as I had been testing this for about a year and wanted to see if it worked for a wide audience - so-far the result appears to be yes (Ubuntu uses LDFLAGS ;)).

I would like to use Jackass 2005.1 build for beta2 so if you're happy I'll be in touch to arrange. And I will see how I go building the entire system with the defaults ;)

Perhaps send me a PM if you have any other suggestions or ideas re how we could work together, if you are interested.

I'm currently working on beta2, which will hopefully also include an AMD64 version.

Cheers,
Chris
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Jackass! CFLAGs haven't changed for 2005.1; they're still the same used in 2005.0 and in the Stage 1/3 thread. A sampling of my Jackass! make.conf:
Code:
CFLAGS="-march=pentium3 -mtune=pentium3"
#
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -pipe"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -O3"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fweb"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -frename-registers"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fforce-addr"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -momit-leaf-frame-pointer"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fomit-frame-pointer"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -ftracer"
#
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fvisibility-inlines-hidden"
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nightmorph wrote:
The Jackass! CFLAGs haven't changed for 2005.1; they're still the same used in 2005.0 and in the Stage 1/3 thread. A sampling of my Jackass! make.conf:
Code:
CFLAGS="-march=pentium3 -mtune=pentium3"
#
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -pipe"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -O3"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fweb"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -frename-registers"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fforce-addr"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -momit-leaf-frame-pointer"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fomit-frame-pointer"
CFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -ftracer"
#
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fvisibility-inlines-hidden"


Thanks.

Here is the relevant Kororaa make.conf section
Code:
CFLAGS="-march=pentium3 -pipe -Os -fweb -frename-registers -fforce-addr -momit-leaf-frame-pointer -fomit-frame-pointer -ftracer"
CXXFLAGS="${CFLAGS} -fvisibility-inlines-hidden -Wl,-O1"

As you can see they are identical to Jackass! except for the -Os and LDFLAG as previously discussed ;)

Cheers,
Chris
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i definitely think it would be a good idea to put our heads together on this, though i'd prefer to use email as my gentoo inbox is cronically at 100%. :?

regading ubuntu, are they using LDFLAGS with GCC 3.4.4?
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob P wrote:
i definitely think it would be a good idea to put our heads together on this, though i'd prefer to use email as my gentoo inbox is cronically at 100%. :?

regading ubuntu, are they using LDFLAGS with GCC 3.4.4?


Ahhh.. I can't remember - lemme check distrowatch.com

[time passes]

Looks like they are currently using gcc 4.0.1 for breezy badger, and previously 3.3.5 for hoary.
Do you have jabber? If so, msg me there :)

-c
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must say, I reccomend this to anyone and everyone trying to install gentoo.

I've always loved gentoo, I've had to do every installation atleast twice (stage1, 2 and 3) depending on how much time I had.

This is an excellent way to save time, it installs tons of packages, probally over 270, and it is very simple to emerge some more and choose a fast gentoo mirror.

I installed it through this method recently, install was pretty quick, I was impressed with it because it was one cd and included all the extra packages, that was a bonus.

The only problem, i already notified taskara and he posted a fix for it, I had to rewrite grub.conf and re-run the install for it on the livecd, but it was no big deal.

It's the closest thing to gentoo out there, because it is gentoo, I emerged gentoo-sources-2.6.13, and everything went ok, I have the NVidia driver installed, and my system is looking strong ;)

Seemed like a flawless install, easy to understand and do, nice work.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks cheater1034 :)
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So as to help seperate issues, list bugs and fixes, and provide announcements etc, I have set up official forums for Kororaa here.
If you would like to, feel free to discuss Kororaa related issues there, or simply continue here in the Gentoo forums :)
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to coin3d, the ISO is now available for direct http download here.
The md5sum is here.

If you can download via bittorrent then that would be the preferred method, but if not, coin3d has kindly provided this link.

Thanks
-c
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have added a Poll here for people to give their opinion about what features they would most like to see in Kororaa.

-c
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taskara
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Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, three weeks after its release we have reached well over 300 downloads of Kororaa Beta1!

I hope this is indicitive of the need for Kororaa.
It looks like I will be continuing this project and currently looking to release a Gnome version (yes alright, YOU WIN!!) as well as an AMD64 version.

Thank you all for your support, and if you have any feedback whether good or bad please let us know!

Cheers,
Chris
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pwe
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wil be on ftp again?
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taskara
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pwe wrote:
wil be on ftp again?

I'm hoping so! I haven't been able to contact coin3d yet.

I'll let everyone know when it's back online.

Are you unable to download via BT?

-c
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