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berkowski
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PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: No, really, it does suck. Here's why... Reply with quote

I was going to talk about royrob210, but others have beat me too it. Dibs on the next one:

DrUberEgo wrote:

Now, this wouldn't be too bad if it didn't take me four very long hours to try each fix attempt. But it does.:roll: Last I checked I have a finite limit on the amount of time allocated to me for dealing with these stupid kinds of issues
.
.
.
Debian which have painless installs (RedHat more so than debian but I've already put in several hundered hours and solve
the debian stupid stuff)
(emphasis added)

I don't think I've put in several hundred hours in front of the computer in my entire lifetime.
Flamers who contradict themselves in their own post, simply too easy.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: No, really, it does suck. Here's why... Reply with quote

berkowski wrote:

I don't think I've put in several hundred hours in front of the computer in my entire lifetime.


Yeah we usually understate the amount of time we do things. Our minds lie to ourselves...but if you break it down, you will find that most things in life are way more prevelant than one perceives.

300 hundred hours on a PC can be done if you use your PC for a mere 45 minutes a day for a year. You think you use your PC for less than that a da--go for some days without even touching it? How long have you owned a computer? If its been two years, then you would have to sit in front of it for a mere 22 minutes a day, three years you say? 11 minutes a day...etc.

Its amazing what you can accumulate over time...not that several hundred hours is that much but a huge number like that certainly seems like a lot, when it really isnt and over time, it becomes real easy to meet.

You spend $1,500 on coffee a year. No way in hell you say. That seems way out there...no way. But if you break it down, that's 3 coffees a day at a cheap $1.25. Start adding things up you do frequently and you will surprise yourself...
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I stand corrected :wink:

Maybe I should rephrase it.

Nah, that'd take too much time.
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PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Damn, I've spend roughly 2000 hours in front of a box this year alone 8O
Time flies when you have fun :lol:
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lurid wrote:
Anyone I've ever met thats used Portage for any length of time will never go back to RPMs.

quite so :D
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really understand why people attack gentoo or why people staunchly defend it either. I've run a rock solid gentoo system for 2 years which requires no maintenance and is customised exactly the way i want it. Sure, I enjoy portage and optimisations as much as the next person, but above all, I have everything I need, my system is rock solid, and the gentoo forums offer support far beyond any other distro I've seen. I'm so happy infact that I have no need to bash other distros.

Let others live in denial. USE gentoo because you like it. Be happy. :)
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rutski89 wrote:
lurid wrote:
Anyone I've ever met thats used Portage for any length of time will never go back to RPMs.

quite so :D

Certainly if you don't know how to use RPM, it can be a bitch. But for those of us who know how to use yum or apt-get/synaptic, RPM is just as easy as Portage. And stuff breaks a lot less frequently.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

widremann wrote:
rutski89 wrote:
lurid wrote:
Anyone I've ever met thats used Portage for any length of time will never go back to RPMs.

quite so :D

Certainly if you don't know how to use RPM, it can be a bitch. But for those of us who know how to use yum or apt-get/synaptic, RPM is just as easy as Portage. And stuff breaks a lot less frequently.


I'm calling bullshit on that, having experienced oodles of problems with apt-get on a FC server. I gave up and switched to Gentoo and it was much better.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

widremann wrote:
rutski89 wrote:
lurid wrote:
Anyone I've ever met thats used Portage for any length of time will never go back to RPMs.

quite so :D

Certainly if you don't know how to use RPM, it can be a bitch. But for those of us who know how to use yum or apt-get/synaptic, RPM is just as easy as Portage. And stuff breaks a lot less frequently.

Maybe so. What I dislike about the rpm system (at least up2date) is that there are not even a thrid as many packages as are in portage. Software is hard to find, and I often found myself hacking my way through and running manual compiles from source code anyway; so, why not just use gentoo I though! :D
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

im skeptical about all those optimizations gentoo has improving performance any mroe than 1 or 2% (at most), but since i have lots of control over the system from the point of install and what gets compiled in, i can trim lots of fat and have a much cleaner and organized system. also, less crap running on your system makes for a faster system overall. i went from RH7/8 to Gentoo and noticed it was much faster on the same hardware... the reason wasnt a big surprise... there was nothing running! In other distros there are a dozen processes that i dont have a clue what theyre for.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rutski89 wrote:
widremann wrote:
rutski89 wrote:
lurid wrote:
Anyone I've ever met thats used Portage for any length of time will never go back to RPMs.

quite so :D

Certainly if you don't know how to use RPM, it can be a bitch. But for those of us who know how to use yum or apt-get/synaptic, RPM is just as easy as Portage. And stuff breaks a lot less frequently.

Maybe so. What I dislike about the rpm system (at least up2date) is that there are not even a thrid as many packages as are in portage. Software is hard to find, and I often found myself hacking my way through and running manual compiles from source code anyway; so, why not just use gentoo I though! :D

Well, you need to set up the right repositories. I usually could find most everything already packaged. Sometimes I had to go the tar.gz route, but that was infrequent. I must say, though, that Portage does have pretty much everything. I haven't had to go outside of Portage to install software unless there was a broken ebuild.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

groovin wrote:
im skeptical about all those optimizations gentoo has improving performance any mroe than 1 or 2% (at most)


Gentoo doesnt have any optomizations for improving performance. You are talking about CFLAGS and those are inherint to GCC, the compiler, not Gentoo, the distribution of Linux. It neither promotes such usage. Gentoo has given a lot of control to many that do not know what to do with it. Throw a child on the throne...

I am amazed how so many have a misconception of Gentoo and what it's about and what it can/can't do.

I can see and empathyze with those that ultimately prejudice Gentoo based on their experiences the users they come across. Its alarming to see how many, even in this thread lone, can give Gentoo a negative image.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lokheed wrote:
groovin wrote:
im skeptical about all those optimizations gentoo has improving performance any mroe than 1 or 2% (at most)


Gentoo doesnt have any optomizations for improving performance. You are talking about CFLAGS and those are inherint to GCC, the compiler, not Gentoo, the distribution of Linux. It neither promotes such usage. Gentoo has given a lot of control to many that do not know what to do with it. Throw a child on the throne...

I am amazed how so many have a misconception of Gentoo and what it's about and what it can/can't do.

I can see and empathyze with those that ultimately prejudice Gentoo based on their experiences the users they come across. Its alarming to see how many, even in this thread lone, can give Gentoo a negative image.

You're committing a classic fallacy. Any problem that exists, you say "well, that's not real Gentoo" or "you're just not doing it right". Well, that is real Gentoo, and, unfortunately, like everything else in this universe, it has flaws. You can't just redefine the negatives away. It doesn't work like that.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

widremann wrote:

You're committing a classic fallacy. Any problem that exists, you say "well, that's not real Gentoo" or "you're just not doing it right". Well, that is real Gentoo, and, unfortunately, like everything else in this universe, it has flaws. You can't just redefine the negatives away. It doesn't work like that.


What? Can you elaborate on how this is a "classic fallacy?" What do you mean by "classic fallacy?"

I fail to see how unrecommended CFLAGS that are directly a part of the compiler (NOTE: You can use CFLAGS in every single Linux distro) are the responsibility or if you want to simplify, Gentoo's fault?

Are you saying that if I leave a crayon on the floor in a room full of people of various ages, and a 3 year old picks it up and writes all over the walls, I am at fault? Would blame go to his mother? What about the people that sat around doing nothing? Would you scold the 3 year? Just because you get in a car accident, doesn't mean you can sue the car manufacturer. That is in parallel with your statements above. Since when is it Gentoo's responsibility to make sure people don't abuse their privileges?

I reiterate, it is not Gentoo or the fault of Gentoo that ignorant people abuse the power given to them. Yes everything has it's faults (obviously that is a given in life) but that is not in question here. The question here is whether Gentoo should be blamed for people not knowing how to properly administer CFLAGS or believing it is a Gentoo feature...which it is not a Gentoo specific feature.

It is without argument that aggressive CFLAGS are an important concern of Gentoo but then cars cause thousands of accidents year round. Do we blame the car manufacturers? The drivers? The traffic regulatory commities? Weather conditions?

It looks like you are caught up in your own "classic fallacy." If you can't see where and how, then it is pointless to continue this fruitless debate. But you of course could prove me wrong by showing me one single official Gentoo document that OK's aggressive CFLAGS, or one single developer that will come forth and do the same. Then at least you would show that Gentoo should be accepting responsibility for the rotten apples in the bushel.

But to end off, aggressive CFLAGS aren't real Gentoo and they aren't doing it right.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vonhelmet wrote:
widremann wrote:
rutski89 wrote:
lurid wrote:
Anyone I've ever met thats used Portage for any length of time will never go back to RPMs.

quite so :D

Certainly if you don't know how to use RPM, it can be a bitch. But for those of us who know how to use yum or apt-get/synaptic, RPM is just as easy as Portage. And stuff breaks a lot less frequently.


I'm calling bullshit on that, having experienced oodles of problems with apt-get on a FC server. I gave up and switched to Gentoo and it was much better.

I think you read the quotes wrong. The key word was "would never go back to rpms."
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a logical fallacy whose name I can't remember in which any time someone brings up some negative about whatever it is you are defending, you simply say that they aren't doing it right, or it's not the real xyz. For example, in debates about communism, defenders of communism, when told of the failures of communism in the real world, might say that it wasn't implemented correctly in these cases and so it's not real communism and therefore communism is still a good and workable system. Do you see the fallacy in doing this?
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ive used gentoo for about 2 years now (Yeah its been a while) I personally find it easier to use than mandrake. How sad is that? :-P

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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

widremann wrote:
There is a logical fallacy whose name I can't remember in which any time someone brings up some negative about whatever it is you are defending, you simply say that they aren't doing it right, or it's not the real xyz. For example, in debates about communism, defenders of communism, when told of the failures of communism in the real world, might say that it wasn't implemented correctly in these cases and so it's not real communism and therefore communism is still a good and workable system. Do you see the fallacy in doing this?


comparisons are missleading, most of the times!

your comparison would be valid, if a "good and workable [gentoo] system" never would have existed! but there are lots of people out there with a perfectly working gentoo-system. gentoo just gives you a lot of opportunities to screw up, so if you are not very careful or absolutly tech-savvy, it is likley to fail.

nevertheless, i have to aggree, that gentoo, of course, is not perfect. but what i really appreciate about gentoo, is, that whenever something does go wrong, it is, usually, just a matter of hours, until the fix makes it into portage or gets posted on these forums.


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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

loki99 wrote:
widremann wrote:
There is a logical fallacy whose name I can't remember in which any time someone brings up some negative about whatever it is you are defending, you simply say that they aren't doing it right, or it's not the real xyz. For example, in debates about communism, defenders of communism, when told of the failures of communism in the real world, might say that it wasn't implemented correctly in these cases and so it's not real communism and therefore communism is still a good and workable system. Do you see the fallacy in doing this?


comparisons are missleading, most of the times!

your comparison would be valid, if a "good and workable [gentoo] system" never would have existed! but there are lots of people out there with a perfectly working gentoo-system. gentoo just gives you a lot of opportunities to screw up, so if you are not very careful or absolutly tech-savvy, it is likley to fail.

nevertheless, i have to aggree, that gentoo, of course, is not perfect. but what i really appreciate about gentoo, is, that whenever something does go wrong, it is, usually, just a matter of hours, until the fix makes it into portage or gets posted on these forums.


What Loki said. Besides there are no cases of communism ever working. I can say that I myself am a case for Gentoo to work as it should...

Your "logical fallacy" may apply to principles that are sound but have never been implemented properly or by their very nature were undermined by a third factor (as in communism), but Gentoo cannot be compared to this. It would certainly be plausible if no one ever got Gentoo off the ground but it is most likely that the ricers don't out number the people who have solid, stable system. Would a logical fallacy still apply to communism if 80% of the countries that adopted the practice strived from it?

I doubt using the term logical fallacy can be applied to ever situation when someone does not apply a principle properly. if I use a screw driver backwards and get nowhere, would someone pointing that out be able to use the term logical fallacy I wonder?
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't really care about USE variables...they might be cool, and they might make it run faster, but frankly, unless I'm running a server or something that needs to be super-optimised, I can do without the extra speed or the extra control. Am I alone in this? "Gentoo is rice" struck a chord with me....

Also, the install process is like pulling teeth. The documentation is fantastic, but in an ideal world, it should be so easy to install that I shouldn't need it. All I should need to do for more information is click a GUI "what's this mean?" button.

I want to have Portage's package babies, though. Holy crap, it is amazing. And interestingly? There are a lot of gentoo bashers, for sure, and they all bash the absurdity that is USE variables, but I've never seen anyone sling mud at Portage, or at least not coherently. "j0 d00d p0rt463 suxx0rz. y? have u 3v3r usd a bsd or debina. lol"
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jessicavampirehunter wrote:
I don't really care about USE variables...they might be cool, and they might make it run faster, but frankly, unless I'm running a server or something that needs to be super-optimised, I can do without the extra speed or the extra control. Am I alone in this? "Gentoo is rice" struck a chord with me....

Also, the install process is like pulling teeth. The documentation is fantastic, but in an ideal world, it should be so easy to install that I shouldn't need it. All I should need to do for more information is click a GUI "what's this mean?" button.

I'm just wondering.. why did you choose Gentoo? There are plenty of other distros around which provide the pretty GUI installers, and config tools. If I didn't want the extra control of my system, I wouldn't be using Gentoo.

But hey, it's your choice!
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

d4rk74m4 wrote:
jessicavampirehunter wrote:
I don't really care about USE variables...they might be cool, and they might make it run faster, but frankly, unless I'm running a server or something that needs to be super-optimised, I can do without the extra speed or the extra control. Am I alone in this? "Gentoo is rice" struck a chord with me....

Also, the install process is like pulling teeth. The documentation is fantastic, but in an ideal world, it should be so easy to install that I shouldn't need it. All I should need to do for more information is click a GUI "what's this mean?" button.

I'm just wondering.. why did you choose Gentoo? There are plenty of other distros around which provide the pretty GUI installers, and config tools. If I didn't want the extra control of my system, I wouldn't be using Gentoo.

But hey, it's your choice!


I was just wondering that exact same thing. I was perfectly happy running Debian (well mostly) and using APT but I always wanted that extra control that Gentoo offers (Gentoo was my second distro in those days) so when I got a machine that would take the sting out of compiling KDE I switched.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

w00t a thread from the stone age back in 1st page! yippeee!
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lepaca Kliffoth wrote:
w00t a thread from the stone age back in 1st page! yippeee!


Ah, yes, what nostalgia... I remember when this thread still had 0 posts...
(Yes, I know my join date is in December, but, well... I lurked)
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't say that compiling everything from source is one of Gentoo's advantages over the rest of the world. The difference, as every experienced Linux user can say, is minimal between a -march=athlon and a -march=486 -mtune=686. Portage is cool, but it isn't an advantage by itself. Synaptic is usable, and for some people is broken, but so is Portage. Also, the benefit from CFLAGS and USE flags it's a double-edged sword: it's so easy to shoot yourself in the foot... And there's the classic problem (you went to a friend's house with a notebook compiled without Xinerama support, and wanted to connect it to an external monitor and use Xinerama because your friend had an spare monitor. Time to compile!)

What IS an advantage is:

1. How EASY is to track and fix a problem. Nothing was worse than seeing Mandrake failing on me, with a damned DrakConf that was SO unstable, and an arcane startup system that was a mystery for me. Moreover, the binary kernel was beautifully patched with SuperMount and Aurora, but the kernel sources were... vanilla. So, to compile a kernel wasn't an option, and the binary kernel wasn't compiled for my PC. More trouble. Later I tried Red Hat. Same story, without Aurora and SuperMount, but with Red Hat's own troubles. They made me choose Windows 2000 at the time.
The Mandrake's scripts were so cryptic that was impossible to understand anything. Putting programs at start?? Forget it. Making your own kernel? Impossible. Solve a problem? It was more difficult than Windows. Same thing with Red Hat. Until I found a more than tolerable level of design in Slackware, I remained with Windows.
Gentoo is different. It has low level automatized tools that allow you to configure properly your system without remaking all of the system scripts. No GUI configuring, no edit-all-by-yourself. The perfect balance. Perfect for tracking problems, squashing them, and not to have all of your settings overwritten by GUI tools.
2. How UPDATED you can be. Packages on Gentoo are 1 kb files called "ebuilds". Packages for everything else are binaries. It's easier to make ebuilds and use Portage to compile the packages than to have packages compiled and to test them for making them work with the distro. So, you can get the LATEST, much BEFORE other distros.
3. How GREAT are the forums. Because Gentoo is a distro made by geeks, for geeks, you can make a question and have an immediate answer from a developer or from someone else who, maybe, it's a developer in another OS project. They are people who KNOW WHAT ARE DOING, unlike people from another forums devoted to another distros.
4. How EASY is to EXPERIMENT. Here is the only point where Gentoo is really EASIER to use than every other distro. Do you want to use CVS aMSN with webcam and voice support? Download a 2kb overlay and emerge. Do you want to use experimental X.org 6.99? Unmask the ebuild and emerge it. Do you want E17? Emerge. What about other distros? You know the mantra. It says "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you..." Pray it seven times and if things work, consider yourself lucky.

So, if you want something that works out of the box, Lycoris may be your choice, but try to edit a config file and you'll call hell upon you. I haven't tried Debian, but I think it's a good distro anyway. It has an stable branch that is stable indeed. But if you like to experiment a LOT (i.e. if you are a geek) Gentoo is definitely for you. That's what I found, and I have an spare partition waiting for Windows since 3 months ago. I haven't missed Windows, and I am happy with my Gentoo sys.
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