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kalisphoenix
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really hope that Sony isn't going to charge $500 for the PS3. They'd better not. $300 is already pushing it.
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Hara
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on the price, now the rumor is $370.

http://itvibe.com/news/3552/
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This might just be a rumor, but I just heard that IBM employees have been submitting kernel patches to the PPC branch of kernel dev for the BPA platform, which is apparently the Cell processor. I'd like to find these men and/or women and give them nice big smooches.
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why would them need MMU in a game console? They can run only a game at each time and they can throw away all of the overhead related to memory management (or most of it).
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Hara
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PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I understand, the cell is supposed to be more of a change of paradigm than just a new architecture. Its designed to change the computing industry as we know it. Why it includes the MMU is probably because it was designed with more than just games in mind. Even though the ps3 can play games, I believe its also designed for multimedia purposes as they demo'd, they had like 1000 or so video streams simultaneously. Also the cell itself is supposed to later be used in devices like cameras, hdtv's, and the such, so an mmu would probably be useful, especially since cell is designed to work inconjunction with other cells.

Just my 2 cents
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GNUtoo
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PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm also interested by a lot of computer power but not for compiling apps...
for some coding that needs a lot of matematical power
(for the programmer not the final user)
i'd like to work on some compression alghoritm...
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killercow
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 2:39 pm    Post subject: linux on cell Reply with quote

linux on cell cpu's is confirmed

http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/27/0148227&from=rss <- cell based linux blade server.

http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/05/24/1744205&tid=136&tid=8&tid=10&tid=137 <- cell software to be open-sourced by ibm.

So, YAY!!!!1111

open-source to rule the world.

now let's just hope they won;t be placing tcpa stuff in there when they package it as the ps3

ps, hara, they had a demo with 48 simulatious video's being decoded by a (i beleive) a 3 cell setup.

the power of the cell would be that it is a processor designed to be bundled into a larger cluster. Each cell in our house (tv's,pc's,playstation,pda,servers) could work on tasks simultaniously to achieve power not easily generated with normal smp setup's.

Some techy's over at /. have interpeted the patents toshiba/sony and ibm have filed for wich relate to the cell, and they have tried to see what the cell would look like, if you use the goolgle way of searching slashdot (google.com -> site:slahdot.org cell ibm) you should be able to find the links.


Last edited by killercow on Mon May 30, 2005 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Hara
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Than it is done!!

I am getting a PS3!!!
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pfft... That'd be a laugh...

Bring the thing to uni... hook it up to my P4-based laptop via a crossover cable, and turn my laptop into a thin client hanging off the XBox 360 (or PS3).

Pity the Cisco VPNclient sees it its duty to take over ALL interfaces...otherwise that might actually be feasable.
(I've tried with a second PIII laptop with a busted screen, back when my main workhorse was a PII 300MHz... DHCP worked, but beyond that, couldn't ping... couldn't connect in any way)

But price is a big point... Being the poor uni student I am (the P4 laptop above was a 21st Birthday present... and is second hand)... I can barely afford the cost of a PS2... otherwise I'd be maintaining Gentoo on that too.:roll:
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kalisphoenix
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was reading on some tech news site about the new dual-core AMD chips. It said that the 4800+ dual core is essentially two 4000+ (top of the line single core, right now) cores in a single chip.

Holy shit, if I didn't misread that.

I had no idea that the overhead losses were going to be that extreme. That's 80% lost on the second chip. If I'm understanding that article correctly, well, I can't even imagine how that is economical. The rate of return is so low that triple-cores would seem almost completely worthless. I'd like to think that the PPC triple-core chip used in the XBox 360 are more advanced and will have higher power yields, but I dunno. I'm crushed now :-(

Redhatter wrote:
Bring the thing to uni... hook it up to my P4-based laptop via a crossover cable, and turn my laptop into a thin client hanging off the XBox 360 (or PS3).


:lol:

Quote:
But price is a big point... Being the poor uni student I am (the P4 laptop above was a 21st Birthday present... and is second hand)... I can barely afford the cost of a PS2... otherwise I'd be maintaining Gentoo on that too.:roll:


My fiancee and I just got some bad financial news, so it looks like I won't be getting an XBox 360 either. I still have high hopes for the PS3, though.
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tom61
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalisphoenix wrote:

Sony might (small wet dream) release a Linux kit for the PS3 like they did for the PS2, in which case it might be possible to find it on BitTorrent. It might even be affordable, seeing as how much of the cost of the $200 PS2 Linux kit was due to proprietary cables that assumedly won't be necessary for the PS3 (with USB, et cetera).


The PS2 has USB, and the first model even had firewire (not sure if the new one does or not), so a 'cheap' and/or non-proprietary Linux kit for PS3 is very unlikely. Sony deliberately crippled the PS2 Linux kit too, in an attempt to stop people from pirating games, making it only usable with the VGA cable.

Quote:
Most accounts seem to say that the PS3 is going to kick the shit out of the XBox 360. Has anybody out there looked at the specs and figured out which is more likely to get a quick Linux port?


PS3 should be more powerfull than the XBox 360, considering it is coming out later than the 360. Moore's Law affects game consoles too. Considering the 360 is comming out "holiday season 2005", and the PS3 "Spring 2006", I'm guessing the 360 will get a port first, just because of the lead time.

The playable demos at E3 for the 360 were actually running on Power Mac Dual G5s, so the PPC compiling tools should help out at the very least. The removable and upgradable harddrive on the 360 opens up a lot of possibilities. I can just imagine it running FAT-X (I think that's what it is called) like the first X-Box. Possibly as simple as popping it in your PC, compile the FAT-X module (from X-Box Linux) into your kernel, and put whatever you want on it. Also, the 360 can use USB drives that are formatted FAT16/32 (they show a diagram with and I-Pod and the Sony PSP connected to the 360), so that's another possibility for getting code on there. Also, it seems that X-Box 1 games may be statically recompiled for the 360, through Live. Full details on backward compatability with X Box 1 haven't been released yet, but there has been an announcement that 'top selling' X Box games will be playable on the X Box 360. So, existing expliots (like the Mech Warrior save game trick) for the X Box may be ported inadvertently to the 360.
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zerojay
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 8:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom61 wrote:
kalisphoenix wrote:

Sony might (small wet dream) release a Linux kit for the PS3 like they did for the PS2, in which case it might be possible to find it on BitTorrent. It might even be affordable, seeing as how much of the cost of the $200 PS2 Linux kit was due to proprietary cables that assumedly won't be necessary for the PS3 (with USB, et cetera).


The PS2 has USB, and the first model even had firewire (not sure if the new one does or not), so a 'cheap' and/or non-proprietary Linux kit for PS3 is very unlikely. Sony deliberately crippled the PS2 Linux kit too, in an attempt to stop people from pirating games, making it only usable with the VGA cable.

Quote:
Most accounts seem to say that the PS3 is going to kick the shit out of the XBox 360. Has anybody out there looked at the specs and figured out which is more likely to get a quick Linux port?


PS3 should be more powerfull than the XBox 360, considering it is coming out later than the 360. Moore's Law affects game consoles too. Considering the 360 is comming out "holiday season 2005", and the PS3 "Spring 2006", I'm guessing the 360 will get a port first, just because of the lead time.

The playable demos at E3 for the 360 were actually running on Power Mac Dual G5s, so the PPC compiling tools should help out at the very least. The removable and upgradable harddrive on the 360 opens up a lot of possibilities. I can just imagine it running FAT-X (I think that's what it is called) like the first X-Box. Possibly as simple as popping it in your PC, compile the FAT-X module (from X-Box Linux) into your kernel, and put whatever you want on it. Also, the 360 can use USB drives that are formatted FAT16/32 (they show a diagram with and I-Pod and the Sony PSP connected to the 360), so that's another possibility for getting code on there. Also, it seems that X-Box 1 games may be statically recompiled for the 360, through Live. Full details on backward compatability with X Box 1 haven't been released yet, but there has been an announcement that 'top selling' X Box games will be playable on the X Box 360. So, existing expliots (like the Mech Warrior save game trick) for the X Box may be ported inadvertently to the 360.


An MS engineer working on X-Box compatibility for the X-Box 360 said that there will be no recompilation done and that there will instead be an X-Box emulation layer instead.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa.... emulating x86 on PPC64? That'll be interesting... And slow.

Mind you... it's only got to push ~700MHz... so it may be possible, seeing as the XBox 360 runs more than 4x the speed.... but IMHO, I/O throughput would be hurt severely too.
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kalisphoenix
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tom61 wrote:
PS3 should be more powerfull than the XBox 360, considering it is coming out later than the 360. Moore's Law affects game consoles too. Considering the 360 is comming out "holiday season 2005", and the PS3 "Spring 2006", I'm guessing the 360 will get a port first, just because of the lead time.


Gah! I'm sick of hearing that Moore's Law has anything to do with the differences between these two machines. The XBox will be released later than a Sun E25K Server, too, but I can tell you which one I'd rather have. I personally don't think that the Cell processor and a triple-core PPC CPU can be really compared using Moore's Law. It seems like comparing a GPU to a CPU to me.

What I was curious about was which one would end up with more raw power. There's no question (at least for me) that the triple-core PPC chip in the XBox 360 is a pretty frantic struggle on the part of a (now) outdated processor architecture. What I wonder is why Microsoft, who I would assume had some knowledge of the Cell processor (given its mention in articles going back a couple years), would choose an apparently-weaker chip over the Cell. I'm beginning to agree with those who think that the Cell might have been drastically overhyped chip whose drawbacks limit its applications/market share/lifespan, in addition to the nasty DRM stuff that might be enforced. Or not.

In other words, I'm wondering if these are both just very flawed designs with massive hype (3x3.2GHz G5's! A 3.2GHz CELL PROCESSOR!) that are going to end up being suitable for, well, gaming. And that's it.

I dunno if this is all making sense. I am high, so I might just be rambling. I know I'm certainly paranoid. And expecting that IBM and Sony and Microsoft have essentially created crippled PCs which they will sell for less than a PC... well, that's too weird to be true ;-)
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Hara
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What I was curious about was which one would end up with more raw power. There's no question (at least for me) that the triple-core PPC chip in the XBox 360 is a pretty frantic struggle on the part of a (now) outdated processor architecture. What I wonder is why Microsoft, who I would assume had some knowledge of the Cell processor (given its mention in articles going back a couple years), would choose an apparently-weaker chip over the Cell.


I believe Microsoft's point was to make a machine that would be easy to develop for, not necessarily have the fastest raw power. Since Cell is a new technology and is definetly a new type of platform, Microsoft would probably rather wait until the technology matures before they start using Cell themselves. In general I believe Microsoft usually goes for tried and true in a new light rather than develop anything radically new.

Quote:
I'm beginning to agree with those who think that the Cell might have been drastically overhyped chip whose drawbacks limit its applications/market share/lifespan, in addition to the nasty DRM stuff that might be enforced. Or not.


Again its waay too early to tell. Speculation is all we can do.
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Redhatter wrote:
pfft... That'd be a laugh...

Bring the thing to uni... hook it up to my P4-based laptop via a crossover cable, and turn my laptop into a thin client hanging off the XBox 360 (or PS3).

Pity the Cisco VPNclient sees it its duty to take over ALL interfaces...otherwise that might actually be feasable.
(I've tried with a second PIII laptop with a busted screen, back when my main workhorse was a PII 300MHz... DHCP worked, but beyond that, couldn't ping... couldn't connect in any way)
You might try vpnc instead of the cisco vpn client....You can play with routing tables and maintain local connectivity and VPN connectivity at the same time.

and more on topic, I can't wait to see linux run on either/both of these platforms!!!
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Hara
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
and more on topic, I can't wait to see linux run on either/both of these platforms!!!


You know you're right. I've been focusing on the PS3 but even the 360 has impressive hardware. Even if microsoft implements some anti-linux device, I know people are out there just waiting to hack it. Although it looks somewhat difficult to hack through with all the new cooling technology.

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/xbox-three-sixty.htm
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killercow
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yay, ibm will talk about linux cell based workstations!

http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/05/06/07/0257221.shtml?tid=136&tid=137&tid=106
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2005 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been doing a lot of reading about the Cell ISA, following the sudden demise of Apple PPC as announced yesterday by Steve (hmmm...I knew it!) Jobs. Yes, ALL Macs will be Intel based by 2007 some starting next year.

So, being something of chip-a-holic, and an x86 hater to boot, I was dismayed that Apple (the only serious desktop manufacturer) had dropped the bombshell.

I'd heard about 360 and Cell, but didn't anticipate their release until very late 2006/early 2007.

However, maybe there's light somewhere, this is what I found :

1) MS, Nintendo, Sony are all using spin-off PowerPC ISA's - starting THIS year!

MS are using the tripple core, already discussed here, and in several places :
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars

Sony/IBM/Tosh are behind the design of the Cell processor, which looks completely awesome. http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=163106213

"The trio is almost done with an application binary interface and language extensions for Cell. A system-level simulator is also nearly complete. Yet to come is a full-fledged Linux implementation for the CPU. "Our plan is to open-source the software for Cell and productize different parts as we go along," said Kahle.

If you live in Germany : http://www.linuxtag.org/typo3site/freecongress-details.html?&L=1&talkid=156

"Arnd Bergmann" mentioned at the bottom of that page has been merily making changes to the linux kernel for months now.
http://www.google.com/search?q=Arnd+Bergmann+cell

;)

The really cool part about Cell is that it's not just designed to work as a single "Cell" but as network, near or far. So, literally you could have a motherboard with four Cells, or two Cell devices on a network, either way they should be able to co-operate.

Aside from that Cell is essentially general purpose powerPC with 8 SPE's !!! ...that's like having 8 Altivecs all on one chip!

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/cell-1.ars

Interestingly, Yellow Dog (PPC linux, yeah) are suggesting they might be working on a Cell based evaluation board, as are those wacky people who create MorphOS.

ApplePPC is dead, long live PPC!!!! :D
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good news

http://www.todojuegos.com/article1801.html <- In SPANISH

By courtesy of Google Translate:

In an interview with the Japanese PC Watch, Ken Kutaragi announced that the hard disk of the PS3 will come with Linux as bonus.

He also confirmed that by default the PS3 will come without hard disk, that will be optional, and will include Linux to be able to use the PS3 like a PC.

The console will have a bay to connect hard disks of 2.5 inches (same that those of Xbox 360, typical in laptops) with diverse capacities (it mentions in the interview 80 and 120gb)
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addition to the last post its also on Slashdot.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've 2 qustions
-what console s more suitable for cluster knowing the fact that:
*the ps3 has a 1000 nic and the xbox a 100nic
*the xbox has a general purpose core and the ps3 have specialised core
-what type of program benefit of a very powerfull floating-point part
(what are the real efect on video encoding for example)

is there a chance to see gpl-drivers for the graphic card in:
-the ps3 (will sony or nvidia relase gpl drivers)
-the xbox

-how is linux for ps2...is there any graphic-card drivers???
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

i've 2 qustions
-what console s more suitable for cluster knowing the fact that:
*the ps3 has a 1000 nic and the xbox a 100nic
*the xbox has a general purpose core and the ps3 have specialised core


Well you sorta answer'd your own question based on those facts. Clustering works better when there is more bandwidth between nodes. Also Cell, as stated before, is designed from the ground up to work well together.

Quote:

-what types of programs benefit from a very powerful floating-point part
(what are the real effect on video encoding for example)


I don't know of the top of my head. Google is your friend for this one. Look at benchmarks on different hardware comparing amd vs intel. Games have extensive use of floating point operations.

Quote:

is there a chance to see gpl-drivers for the graphic card in:
-the ps3 (will sony or nvidia relase gpl drivers)
-the xbox


I'm not sure on this one but probably not. Nvidia hasn't ever released open source drivers so the answer is probably no.

Quote:

-how is linux for ps2...is there any graphic-card drivers???


It exists though not doing that well. Its pretty much considered a dead project. http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-38274-postdays-0-postorder-asc-highlight-ps2-start-25.html
Better to move on to bigger and better things.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously guys, I'm going to put this bluntly...

We hacked the shit out of the first xbox. Sure, absolutly no one runs linux on it. But what you don't realise is anti-piracy technology isn't to stop linux, it's to stop everybody and their mother from loading two dozen games onto their 200gb upgraded harddrive.

They will make the next xbox as bulletproof as possible. There will not be lpc on the motherboard, and there will not be a re-flashable tsop. There will also be a kernel that is much better at stopping overflows as seen in the save game hacks and other software exploits.

If anything we won't see much in the way of discovered vulnerablities in the first 6 months of the 360 being on the market.

This is just my opinion as a vetern xbox enthusiast.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chicken Scratch Boy wrote:
Seriously guys, I'm going to put this bluntly...
Snap.


If you ask me, the xbox has been designed from the beginning to become the test system for TCPA/trusted computing and MS'es scout into the market of Home media and theatres.

The Xbox has been a wonderfull system to try and create a hardware platform capable of keeping of Hackers and software problems.
The Xbox was never intended to make MS any money, they will do that when they get disney and others agree on distributing the next digital media system on microsoft's closed surce next-gen dvd-player. Imagine the money that would generate.

Playing games on the x-box trough directX makes sure openGL get's an other smack in the face, and looses a couple of more developpers, decreasing the possibility for home users to switch to linux/mac.

anyway, well see what happens, since it looks like sony is seeing the same, but they allready have contracts with the next gen media, since they own most of it themselves, and are developping their next-gen system based on linux and the cell.
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