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RioFL Guru
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 407
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:08 am Post subject: [FAQF] KC6: Which sources? |
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MOD EDIT: This thread is the discussion area for this FAQ. --plate
Is there some kind of 'features' docs for kernels that explain the differences in the different types, such as alan cox kernels vs vanilla vs gentoo sources.
I have yet to know exactly what patches gentoo-sources uses and why. I tried to find just the preemption patches for vanilla kernels at kernel.org and drove myself totally insane with it.
This is an area that knowing what options are available in what maintenance-line that make that different than another would be very helpful and educational.
Many people just don't have time to thumb through install scripts and source code trying to find differences and even then they may not fully comprehend what they are reading. A simply explained comparison documentation would be a great help to many people.
Chuck |
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steveb Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002 Posts: 4564
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:18 am Post subject: |
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documenting that kind of difference is very difficult, because the added kernel patches to the diffrend kernel trees are changing with each kernel release and each kernel sub release.
i don't know if any1 would be so insane to take the time and docuement this "moving target".
cheers
SteveB |
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plate Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Moved from Other Things Gentoo (which it isn't, really). |
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RioFL Guru
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 407
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:28 am Post subject: |
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steveb wrote: | documenting that kind of difference is very difficult, because the added kernel patches to the diffrend kernel trees are changing with each kernel release and each kernel sub release.
i don't know if any1 would be so insane to take the time and docuement this "moving target".
cheers
SteveB |
I don't think I said it properly:) I didn't mean detailed docs such as all the changes why and wherefores, but more.. what makes alan cox's kernel tree so much better (if it is) than the standard tree, or than gentoo sources tree... or what makes the gentoo sources patches so great.. maybe a bit more generic than I led you to believe I was talking about:)
I have absolutely no clue what makes the -ac tree so much in demand, and to be honest it scares me when I run a 'gentoo sources' which is heavily patched, but "with what and why" ? The gentoo sources kernel runs well, I am not kicking it I will take it over vanilla sources any day, but "why" is it better?
Chuck |
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steveb Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002 Posts: 4564
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:49 am Post subject: |
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RioFL wrote: | steveb wrote: | documenting that kind of difference is very difficult, because the added kernel patches to the diffrend kernel trees are changing with each kernel release and each kernel sub release.
i don't know if any1 would be so insane to take the time and docuement this "moving target".
cheers
SteveB |
I don't think I said it properly:) I didn't mean detailed docs such as all the changes why and wherefores, but more.. what makes alan cox's kernel tree so much better (if it is) than the standard tree, or than gentoo sources tree... or what makes the gentoo sources patches so great.. maybe a bit more generic than I led you to believe I was talking about:)
I have absolutely no clue what makes the -ac tree so much in demand, and to be honest it scares me when I run a 'gentoo sources' which is heavily patched, but "with what and why" ? The gentoo sources kernel runs well, I am not kicking it I will take it over vanilla sources any day, but "why" is it better?
Chuck |
okay... now i see.
i can not answer your question because i don't know 100% what the differences are.
but if you want to understand this topic, then i would suggest you to get more information on how the linux kernel is developed. and i don't mean the technique used to develop the kernel! i mean the organization of how new features and updates go into the kernel. then you will probably understund much more why developer are producing patches and why other kernel tree maintainers are using those patches.
in general i would say, that another kernel tree then the vanilla kernel has features wich you don't find vanilla kernel for serval reasons:
- it could be, that the specific functionality/patch will never ever make it into the vanilla kernel
- it could be, that the specific functionality/patch will be available soon in the vanilla kernel, but for organisational/political/whatever reason it is not in the current kernel.
- it could be, that the specific functionality/patch is enhancing one or serval aspects of a kernel, while breaking other things and that linus think that that kind of specialisation will cause more trouble for the normal user and he is not willing to use that kind of functionality/patch in his vanilla kernel
- it could be, that the specific functionality/patch is something very special and the combination with other kernel patches (wich are as well applyed to the specific kernel tree) will never ever make it in that kind of combination into the vanilla kernel
- etc, etc, etc....
so if you want to be on the save path, just use the vanilla kernel and live with it. when the vanilla kernel does what you want from it, then everything is okay. but maybe you will miss a function/feature and then you will look around and then you will probably find a patch or a nother kernel tree wich will suite your needs much more and then the vanilla kernel will be history for you... just use linux and the kernel and as time pass by, maybe your needs will change and then is the time to think again about your desission....
cheers
SteveB
ps: sorry for my bad english... |
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RioFL Guru
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 407
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:10 am Post subject: |
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Oook. I have been using vanilla kernels for a few years now, and the gentoo sources kernel is the first non-vanilla kernel I have used. It is incredibly "peppy" and I love the preemption abilities, but I had to find this out by actually using the kernel. I had no idea it had preemption in it until I put it in. To me that is a MAJOR difference between it and the vanilla kernels, yet nowhere , absolutely nowhere did I find anything mentioning preemption in this kernel! Thats what I am talking about I guess. I do not like to just use something blindly to try it out. I am NOT an experimenter nor do I have the time for it. I manage 51 servers which is in itself a 24/7 job and I use these machines to do it with. Any performance increases/nice little features that any kernel makes available that I can use, I want to know about. I cannot find that kind of information anywhere unless I decypher every changelog which even then doesn't tell me much and takes WAY too much time. I guess I want 'things linux' to be as simply and quickly explained as 'things windoze' so I can just go to a spec sheet and compare.
Linux has come a very very long way, and it is about time it starts offering things like that or else somewhere along the line, it may miss a chance for even more inroads into the 'windoze kingdom'.
Even in the website listings of the kernels in portage tree.. "complete gentoo sources" Complete alan cox sources". tells absolutely nothing. A nice little VERY generic : "this kernel has high performance patches, preemption and specialty hooks for........" is all that is needed for each one being offered. just that kind of description. complette sources says absolutely nothing except the person who set the offering up on the site was hard pressed for a description:)
<off soapbox>
guess i will always wonder what i truly have in my kernel until i go thru the source line by line during a month long vacation or something. i can think of lots better things to do with vacation time:) like get AWAY from computers!
Chuck |
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steveb Advocate
Joined: 18 Sep 2002 Posts: 4564
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:22 am Post subject: |
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ahh... okay... i get it.
maybe you could start just by looking at the description of the kernel: Code: | # emerge -s $(ls -1 /usr/portage/sys-kernel/)
Searching...
[ Results for search key : aa-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/aa-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.21_pre4-r3
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 30,390 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for Andrea Arcangeli's Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : ac-sources ]
[ Applications found : 2 ]
* sys-kernel/ac-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.21_pre4-r6
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 29,727 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for Alan Cox's Linux kernel
* sys-kernel/rsbac-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 27,237 kB
Homepage: http://www.rsbac.org
Description: Rule Set Based Access Control (RSBAC) Kernel Patch
Searching...
[ Results for search key : acpi-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/acpi-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r9
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 27,326 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the latest ACPI Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : alpha-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/alpha-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r2
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 2,890 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Linux Alpha kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : ck-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/ck-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r3
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 28,143 kB
Homepage: http://members.optusnet.com.au/ckolivas/kernel/
Description: Full sources for the Stock Linux kernel Con Kolivas's high performance patchset
Searching...
[ Results for search key : crypto-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
Searching...
[ Results for search key : development-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/development-sources
Latest version available: 2.5.63
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 30,974 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : gentoo-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/gentoo-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.19-r10
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 28,035 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : gs-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/gs-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.21_pre4
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 30,720 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: This kernel will hopefully stay up to date and stable for livecd
Searching...
[ Results for search key : hppa-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/hppa-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20_p27
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,899 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Linux kernel with patch for hppa
Searching...
[ Results for search key : ksymoops ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/ksymoops
Latest version available: 2.4.8
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 63 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/utils/kernel/ksymoops/
Description: Utility to decode a kernel oops, or other kernel call traces.
Searching...
[ Results for search key : linux-headers ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/linux-headers
Latest version available: 2.4.19
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 25,432 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Headers for the linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : lolo-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/lolo-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20.2_pre2
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 29,115 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for lostlogic's Gentoo Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : mips-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/mips-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.19
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,031 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Linux MIPS kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : mjc-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/mjc-sources
Latest version available: 2.5.59-r1
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 31,531 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : mosix-sources ]
[ Applications found : 2 ]
* sys-kernel/mosix-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 27,008 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/ http://www.mosix.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Mosix Linux kernel
* sys-kernel/openmosix-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r2
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 27,216 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/ http://www.openmosix.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo openMosix Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : openmosix-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/openmosix-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r2
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 27,216 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/ http://www.openmosix.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo openMosix Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : ppc-sources ]
[ Applications found : 4 ]
* sys-kernel/ppc-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r3
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 27,954 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Linux kernel
* sys-kernel/ppc-sources-benh [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r5
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,937 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/benh/
Description: PowerPC kernel tree based on benh's patches, -r corresponds to ben{r} versioning
* sys-kernel/ppc-sources-crypto [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,980 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.kerneli.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full cryptoapi enabled sources for the Gentoo Linux PPC kernel
* sys-kernel/ppc-sources-dev [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,854 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full developmental sources for the Gentoo Linux PPC kernel - Experimental!
Searching...
[ Results for search key : ppc-sources-benh ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/ppc-sources-benh [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r5
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,937 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/benh/
Description: PowerPC kernel tree based on benh's patches, -r corresponds to ben{r} versioning
Searching...
[ Results for search key : ppc-sources-crypto ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/ppc-sources-crypto [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,980 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.kerneli.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full cryptoapi enabled sources for the Gentoo Linux PPC kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : ppc-sources-dev ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/ppc-sources-dev [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,854 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full developmental sources for the Gentoo Linux PPC kernel - Experimental!
Searching...
[ Results for search key : redhat-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/redhat-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20.2.48
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 37,771 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.redhat.com/
Description: Kernel source tree used in Red Hat distributions (not supported by Red Hat)
Searching...
[ Results for search key : rsbac-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/rsbac-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 27,237 kB
Homepage: http://www.rsbac.org
Description: Rule Set Based Access Control (RSBAC) Kernel Patch
Searching...
[ Results for search key : selinux-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/selinux-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,977 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.nsa.gov/selinux
Description: LSM patched kernel with SELinux archive
Searching...
[ Results for search key : sparc-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/sparc-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,822 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Gentoo Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : usermode-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/usermode-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 2.4.19-r48
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 25,600 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://user-mode-linux.sourceforge.net
Description: Full (vanilla) sources for the User Mode Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : vanilla-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/vanilla-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,778 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the Linux kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : win4lin-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/win4lin-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20-r1
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 26,977 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the linux kernel with win4lin support
Searching...
[ Results for search key : wolk-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/wolk-sources [ Masked ]
Latest version available: 4.0_rc1
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 35,162 kB
Homepage: http://wolk.sourceforge.net http://www.kernel.org
Description: Working Overloaded Linux Kernel
Searching...
[ Results for search key : xfs-sources ]
[ Applications found : 1 ]
* sys-kernel/xfs-sources
Latest version available: 2.4.20_pre6
Latest version installed: [ Not Installed ]
Size of downloaded files: 29,964 kB
Homepage: http://www.kernel.org/ http://www.gentoo.org/
Description: Full sources for the XFS Specialized Gentoo Linux kernel |
and if you spot something wich you like, then you can allways go to the homepage and read more there or hit google with some of the keywords in the description and look what kind of info you get back
cheers
SteveB |
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plate Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 2:31 am Post subject: |
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One FAQ to find them all, and in the darkness bind them: KC6: Which sources?
Now, additions to the descriptions in there are most welcome. It'll probably stay rather superficial as it is intended to a general audience, but if everybody is ok with this thread here becoming the official discussion related to the FAQ, we can insert some of your observations into the kernel mug shots in KC6. |
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RioFL Guru
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 407
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:16 am Post subject: |
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plate wrote: | One FAQ to find them all, and in the darkness bind them: KC6: Which sources?
Now, additions to the descriptions in there are most welcome. It'll probably stay rather superficial as it is intended to a general audience, but if everybody is ok with this thread here becoming the official discussion related to the FAQ, we can insert some of your observations into the kernel mug shots in KC6. |
VERY interesting! Thank you! That is very similar to what I had in mind and it cleard up the mystery surrounding the Gentoo Sources kernel for me:). Some things though which this did not address... I go back to Alan Cox.. I understand he is primarily a network code developer and I think he works for Redhat? Nowhere can I find what makes his kernels so much in demand. Or is it that his kernels are primarily "all things networking" ? Just little things like that, for all the ones that are offered on this site would be nice.. A lot of work initially, but even through kernel versions, the various "people kernels" will not change their basic perspective. Like mjc kernel.. reading the description in the portage tree left me just as confused as before except that by the kernel version this person does something "cutting edge".
I think we need a kernel area to talk about things too.. I notice a curious lack of one, yet no matter what utils/progs/daemons/scripts are run, the kernel is the heart of the personality of the installation on someone's machine. My vote is let's keep going and maybe some of us can learn more about this. I can configure a kernel very tightly for several needs, but to know which kernel to pick sometimes is a major headache.
Chuck |
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RioFL Guru
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 407
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 4:27 am Post subject: |
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Steveb, a bit too long to quote:)... true, but even then many times there is the time element again in researching things. I really wish I had even 2 hours free to be able to research things, but believe me after 16hrs in front of this thing, I am glad to be rid of it totally when I finally walk out of here to relax or sleep. You can argue about the time I am taking to write these messages as research time, but I am writing them inbetween things at work when I have a second or two 'breather'.
A "one stop shop" is what I am attempting to motivate here. There is none and I believe it is sorely needed both as an information item and a convenience to the linux community. The old unix belief that you must sweat blood before you can truly find what you are looking for, and become exasperated so badly your blood pressure is uncontrollable doesnt work any more. Today we need convenience because there is simply too much to sort through now for any one person to handle it.
I had to do that quite a bit for my first qmail install, and if there was a single good resource for more than just elementary or classic installs, I would have saved literally 3 to 4 weeks of research!
Unfortunately, in my job, when I need an answer, I usually have to come up with it 5 minutes before I needed it, so the ability to research things is a luxury I don't have. And now that need for single resource information is becoming more and more prevalent for everyone. I think that if somehow the single information areas like the good documentation that is on this site were increased to many other things, gentoo can be considered *the* distro with all the answers:)
Chuck |
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plate Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Bump. Please note the title change and yet another move of this thread, this time to Documentation, Tips & Tricks.
This is now the official discussion thread for KC6: Which sources? |
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dreamer3 Guru
Joined: 24 Sep 2002 Posts: 553
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 5:38 am Post subject: |
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RioFL wrote: | I guess I want 'things linux' to be as simply and quickly explained as 'things windoze'... |
Then use vanilla sources and pretend there are no others... that's Windows in a nut shell. If Windows is "easier" in this department it's because there is no freedom/choice... unless you mean Windows 2000/XP (NT) vs Windows ME (the last of the 9Xs)... there is a kernel choice for ya. |
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RioFL Guru
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 407
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 6:40 am Post subject: |
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dreamer3 wrote: | RioFL wrote: | I guess I want 'things linux' to be as simply and quickly explained as 'things windoze'... |
Then use vanilla sources and pretend there are no others... that's Windows in a nut shell. If Windows is "easier" in this department it's because there is no freedom/choice... unless you mean Windows 2000/XP (NT) vs Windows ME (the last of the 9Xs)... there is a kernel choice for ya. |
Not what I meant:) I am talking about explanations of what is out there and why it is different than something else. Freedom of choice should not come at a high price of time and effort. If the item is out there, it should be documented as to *why* it's out there. It's "common courtesy common sense" documentation and distributions is what is needed.
It pisses me off no end when I get a great little prog only to find it requires some obscure library that is only available via a trek across the arctic and takes weeks of searching to find. Common sense would say to include that library or just statically link it, and if prevented by the author, give a pointer url to where it can be obtained.
Like when I was studying qmail. Some of the patches talked about smtp return code xxx but with no text explanation of what that code was. It was only by accident I stumbled across the error code listing several weeks after I didn't need it any more and the document I found it in belonged to a windoze program!
What I am tired of is the entire "unix" community taking it for granted that everyone has gobs of time to search for obscure things that if the author would take 4 more minutes to document, would save people a lot of headache. Unix style (including linux) documentation/assumtions are about the absolute worst I have ever experienced. Even IBM mainframe o/s docs are better. The LDP and documents on this site are a good attempt at correcting this but still have a long way to go. The docs on this site are very specific and good, but also have errors in several of them. It's like the writers didn't follow their own documentation pretending to "know nothing" otherwise they would have found them.
Good documentation can be read by the absolute novice and not leave them hanging, yet read by the seasoned administrator and not insult him. I am not just saying this because this is a gentoo site, but the docs I find here, most closely match that criteria of any I have ever read. Each doc has links pointing to good docs on items that are beyond the scope of the current doc. Excellent. Other places leave you hanging to search for everything yourself. To me that is either utter stupidity or utterly egotistically lazy on the author's part.
My need for good kernel comparisons and whys is something that I find sorely lackiing in the linux community. Why is that? Why do people ignore something that important? I have no desire to become a kernel guru yet I have to, to be able to even come close to answering my own questions. To me that is just plain wrong. So I just "pick one" based on one line explanations and hope it's close to what I need/want. I would *love* to have a Gentoo Sources kernel also have UML built in with options to turn preemption on/off in each virtual machine (hint) but that may be technically impossible. Actually a linux top layer kernel that works like vmware's esxserver would be perfect. Boot only that lean top layer, and proceed to create your vms. But I digress... I tend to wander this late at night so I'm ending it before I write a book about nothing. I may have a more intelligent post tomorrow after a bit of sleep:).
Chuck |
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dreamer3 Guru
Joined: 24 Sep 2002 Posts: 553
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2003 8:34 am Post subject: |
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RioFL wrote: | My need for good kernel comparisons and whys is something that I find sorely lackiing in the linux community. Why is that? Why do people ignore something that important? I have no desire to become a kernel guru yet I have to, to be able to even come close to answering my own questions. |
Perhaps it's because no one else has the time either... we all fool around, find something the works well and use it... few of us can say more than "my way works good" which isn't very good for comparison. Perhaps it's best this way... more on that later...
Quote: | I would *love* to have a Gentoo Sources kernel also have UML built in with options to turn preemption on/off in each virtual machine (hint) but that may be technically impossible. |
Considering that the prempatable or not virtual machines would either be pre-empted or not by the REAL kerenel I don't think it would have the desired effect, though there might still be come difference between the approachese even in UML (keep in mind i have NO UML experience).
Quote: | Actually a linux top layer kernel that works like vmware's esxserver would be perfect. Boot only that lean top layer, and proceed to create your vms. But I digress... |
Keep dreaming... Linus was once...
Quote: | I tend to wander this late at night so I'm ending it before I write a book about nothing. |
With regards to wondering... it's great to have a nice write up about each kernel in one place, so you can make an educated decision... but even if that were the case, who'd do the writeups? Which benchmarks would be used, would the write-up party be un-biased? Would you read an article on selecting the best Linux kernel if it were on msdn.microsoft.com... Who do we trust... too many people today trust too many other people ot make their own decisions for them... but you say "WAIT, the decions really mine"... true it is... but only a %
If the #1 Gentoo autorithy said reiserfs was suddenly corrupting lots of systems... people would stop using it for a while and stick to ext3... vise versa... but put all that authority in the wrong hands (think MS) and you get someone elses opinion of what works well.
I know I'm rambling and you think it's not an issue with Linux but if a central authority were to emerge... it could say and do things to influence Linux distributions... etc... la la la la... ok, enough conspiracy theories.
I'm going to try the ck-sources tonight, read a long thread and a lot of good things about them... I'll let you know |
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TheCoop Veteran
Joined: 15 Jun 2002 Posts: 1814 Location: Where you least expect it
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2003 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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what patches do the gaming-sources kernel have? aa-sources? ac-sources? ck-sources? wolk-sources? what is hppa? _________________ 95% of all computer errors occur between chair and keyboard (TM)
"One World, One web, One program" - Microsoft Promo ad.
"Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein Führer" - Adolf Hitler
Change the world - move a rock |
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noff Guru
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 Posts: 388 Location: College Park, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:56 am Post subject: |
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These descriptions could be added.
ck-sources - Kernel patchset by Con Kolivas containing high performance patches for the desktop. Focuses on stability and performance. Follows stable kernel. http://members.optusnet.com.au/ckolivas/kernel/
wolk-sources - Kernel patchset contain large amounts of patches. This set is heavily modified with every bugfix and many performance features. Follows release of stable kernel. Has full development cycle. http://sourceforge.net/projects/wolk
ac-sources - Kernel patchset of Alan Cox contain large number of improvements. Used as a testbed to stable kernels. Follows prerelease kernels. Usually better hardware support than the stable kernel. Updated often.
aa-sources - Similar in form and function to ac-sources, released by Andrea Archangli. Contains a lot of vm work and improvements to interactivity.
lolo-sources - Testbed for gentoo-sources. Contains more performance patches. Created by lostlogic and is Gentoo only.
mm-sources - Released by Andrew Morton rapidly changing kernel of patches for the development kernel. Lots of work on all areas of the kernel. Updated usually daily or more. _________________ What Larry was saying is that if you make it too easy for programmers, then poor programmers will be able to do things best left to good programmers, and will inevitably do them poorly. Everyone will suffer in the long term as a result." - Tom Chance |
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RioFL Guru
Joined: 31 Oct 2002 Posts: 407
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:22 am Post subject: |
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cool! thank you! In about a month, my work will slow down enough I will have a few hours each day to play, so I think I am going to install each of those and explore system personality with each one.. I think a generic system performance report may go nicely with those descriptions.
to make matters fair, i will burn a cd of all the usual things installed in portage and also freeze the portage version onto cd so all things will be equal.
(back to work:( )
chuck |
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plate Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:16 am Post subject: |
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noff, thanks a lot, I've incorporated your descriptions just now. I've also started adding some non-x86 kernels, any suggestions? |
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noff Guru
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 Posts: 388 Location: College Park, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:19 am Post subject: |
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It looks to me that ppc seems to be the only one with multiple kernel trees. Maybe a request in gentoo ppc could yield some responses. _________________ What Larry was saying is that if you make it too easy for programmers, then poor programmers will be able to do things best left to good programmers, and will inevitably do them poorly. Everyone will suffer in the long term as a result." - Tom Chance |
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plate Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:44 am Post subject: |
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Could someone check the document in its current state and fill in some of the blanks? Comments and better ways to explain some kernels are also highly appreciated. |
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noff Guru
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 Posts: 388 Location: College Park, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:43 am Post subject: |
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gs-sources - Kernel to be used on the Gentoo Livecd.
gaming-sources - Modified ck-sources enhanced for use in gaming by Gentoo maintainers. _________________ What Larry was saying is that if you make it too easy for programmers, then poor programmers will be able to do things best left to good programmers, and will inevitably do them poorly. Everyone will suffer in the long term as a result." - Tom Chance |
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noff Guru
Joined: 11 Nov 2002 Posts: 388 Location: College Park, Maryland
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:46 am Post subject: |
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mjc-sources - Michael Cohen's series of patches for performance enhancement. Seems to focus on latency. _________________ What Larry was saying is that if you make it too easy for programmers, then poor programmers will be able to do things best left to good programmers, and will inevitably do them poorly. Everyone will suffer in the long term as a result." - Tom Chance |
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plate Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 7:55 am Post subject: |
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Thanks! That's a very nice collection we have now. I'm still unsure about some of the descriptions, anybody knows better ways to put it, fire at will. |
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Narada Guru
Joined: 12 Dec 2002 Posts: 300 Location: London, UK
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Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 2:42 am Post subject: |
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Hello. When I do an emerge -vp gentoo-sources I get the output:
Code: | Calculating dependencies ...done!
[ebuild R ] sys-kernel/gentoo-sources-2.4.20-r1 -build +crypt -xfs |
According to this output the acpi4linux use flag is no longer in use by gentoo-sources and as such you may want to modify the description to be in line with it. _________________ http://dhruba.name/ |
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plate Bodhisattva
Joined: 25 Jul 2002 Posts: 1663 Location: Berlin
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Posted: Mon Mar 17, 2003 3:14 am Post subject: |
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Thanks a lot! You're right, USE="acpi4linux" has disappeared entirely from the list of valid use flags, too. |
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