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W1ReD
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 4:56 pm    Post subject: Should I or Shouldn't I? That is the question: Reply with quote

OK--

Right now I have two computers:

Main Rig: P4 2.4b@2.84, 512MB XMX3200 DDR, Radeon 9000Pro, 24XLiteOn CDBurner, 40gb GD, etc.

This one runs Win2k, and shares my internet connection to my other computer.

Rig#2: P3 800@893, 512MB SDRAM, GeForce2MX w/32, 4xBurner, 13GB HD, 2GB hd, etc..

This one dual boots: Gentoo Linux with KDE3.1 and Win2k, both getting Internet from my main rig.

Here is my quandry:

I want to install Gentoo Linux on my main rig.

However, I'm not quite sure I'm quite masterful enough to get internet sharing configured correctly in Linux for a while, PLUS, I'd like a firewall.

So here is my thought:

I Have a Celeron 400 (with a slot1 adapter, runs stable at 450), 2 ethernet cards, that 2GB Hd (in the second computer), 256MB SDRAM (if I take half of the second computer's RAM), an S3 Virge PCI Video Card, a Voodoo2 16MB, and an extra crappy monitor lying around here collecting dust.

If I buy This Mobo ($18USD) with This MiniATX Powersupply/Case ($18USD) along with these 2 CDRom Drives ($17USD,each) plus 1 floppy ($9USD) I can have a complete server running with crappy but at least existent 3d capabilities for $79 + $10 or so shipping.

The reason I'm getting two CDroms is that I have these three computers, but as it would seem I only have one Regular CDrom which I can boot from on my second computer. I have 2 other CDroms both of which won't boot for some reason, so I'm replacing the crappiest of the two.

This will leave my server as such:

Celeron 400@450
256MB SDRAM.
2 Ethernet Adapters (for sharing internet)
S3 Virge Video
2gb HD
most likely Win2k Pro

and my second rig as such:

P3 800@896
256MB SDRAM
GeForce2MX
13gb HD ONLY.

Now the question is: Should I do it? It would take away from my second computer (RAM and HD) and it would really be a pain in my butt, but at least then I could install Gentoo on my fast computer and not have to worry about Internet, PLUS have a firewall on the other computer (if I so please), PLUS have an extra computer to Crunch SETIs for me ;):D. However, I'll have to spend ~$90 to get all of this up and running, not to mention install times and waiting on shipping and all of that mumbo jumbo (I'm impatient :D).

What do you think?

What would you do in the same situation?

Let me know.

Thanks!

W1ReD
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jetblack
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why do you want 3d on the server? I think I'd leave the RAM in the second one as is, and just steal the hard drive. If the hardware you're looking at is supported under linux, I'd buy it and set up the new machine as your firewall running linux (throw debian on it or something). I wouldn't even bother with X. Let it handle the connection sharing. Keep your Main machine as is until you have the connection sharing working on the new box, so you can go back to a working configuration if you need to. Then, once the new server is set up properly, wipe the Main machine and install gentoo.

If you need 3d on the server, then this probably isn't the right approach, but if it really only needs to handle the internet connection sharing, then that's how I'd do it.

I'd say, though, that however you choose to set it up, go ahead and do it. If you can put together a new system for $90, it's worth it. It's always fun to have another machine to play with IMO.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

$89 doesn't sound like alot of money, so one question is, can you afford it for "playing"? If that isn't an issue, then you're not going to be out very much money.

Here's what I'd do. Take the Celeron 450 that you are planning to build and install Gentoo on it, keeping your other systems working as they are.

Make the celeron box a learning project for internet sharing. Start with a Stage 3 so you don't have to bother with the bootsrap. Get a basic non-X system up. Start reading about firewalls/routers and internet sharing. Get internet sharing working. Take notes along the way so you have a pretty good idea that you can replicate it.

Next, I'd backup the data on whichever machine had less to backup (The P4 or P3). For example, lets say the P3 had less data that you wanted to keep. Make a zipped tar file of the data and put it onto a spare drive (the recent firewall if there's room, if not on the P4). Next, I'd install Win2K (or whichever version you want) on the P3 box. I'd migrate apps & data from the Win P4 box to this one.

After that, I'd install Gentoo on the P4 and restore data.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetblack wrote:
Why do you want 3d on the server? I think I'd leave the RAM in the second one as is, and just steal the hard drive. If the hardware you're looking at is supported under linux, I'd buy it and set up the new machine as your firewall running linux (throw debian on it or something). I wouldn't even bother with X. Let it handle the connection sharing. Keep your Main machine as is until you have the connection sharing working on the new box, so you can go back to a working configuration if you need to. Then, once the new server is set up properly, wipe the Main machine and install gentoo.

If you need 3d on the server, then this probably isn't the right approach, but if it really only needs to handle the internet connection sharing, then that's how I'd do it.

I'd say, though, that however you choose to set it up, go ahead and do it. If you can put together a new system for $90, it's worth it. It's always fun to have another machine to play with IMO.


OK so what YOU are saying to do is to basically just chuck any low level linux on, no X, and just have it sit there and be the internet sharer..This seems like a clausable idea, but I did want windows on here for 2 reasons: 1)Ease of internet sharing--I click a box and its done. Doesn't get easier than that, and 2)File Transfering through GAIM and such. Most everyone I know is running a Windows system, so I'd like to setup a place for anyone to send me files if they need to for school or whatever the case may be. If I'm running Linux on both main boxes, that can't occur. Basically it gives me a basic backup Windows box always running for just such an occasion. I don't need 3d at all, I was just gonna put it in because its been sitting in a box for I can't remember how long, may as well use it, but maybe I won't even if I do put Win2k on it...not sure yet.

pjp wrote:
$89 doesn't sound like alot of money, so one question is, can you afford it for "playing"? If that isn't an issue, then you're not going to be out very much money.

Here's what I'd do. Take the Celeron 450 that you are planning to build and install Gentoo on it, keeping your other systems working as they are.

Make the celeron box a learning project for internet sharing. Start with a Stage 3 so you don't have to bother with the bootsrap. Get a basic non-X system up. Start reading about firewalls/routers and internet sharing. Get internet sharing working. Take notes along the way so you have a pretty good idea that you can replicate it.


This far it seems like a good idea, except for my aforementioned problem, which I'm still toying with in my head anywho....but what comes next:

pjp wrote:
Next, I'd backup the data on whichever machine had less to backup (The P4 or P3). For example, lets say the P3 had less data that you wanted to keep. Make a zipped tar file of the data and put it onto a spare drive (the recent firewall if there's room, if not on the P4). Next, I'd install Win2K (or whichever version you want) on the P3 box. I'd migrate apps & data from the Win P4 box to this one.

After that, I'd install Gentoo on the P4 and restore data.


This is confusing to me... First let me tell the data situation: I have about 7GB of files total that I save, anytime I format or anything its 7GB of info. But, I dont' have any partitions large enough on the 13gb drive (dual booting) to handle all this, so basically as far as file backup goes I'll prolly be backing everything up via a friend online anyways.

BUt you are saying to put Win2k on the P3? I already have Win2k/Gentoo on this system, and I'm not lookin' to format it and reinstall.

If I get this new system, I'll be formatting and reinstalling everything on the 40gb P4 system, plus setting up the new system--basically I'd like to not have to reinstall all 3.

I have the money to do this (I believe) so its not a huge problem, but these are very good ideas.

IS there a way to have file sharing via different OS? Another problem would be that I want to share all these drives via a little home network, like it is now. If all are running linux, different builds, etc, I'm not sure how I'll be able to accomplish this. Even when I put Gentoo on the main rig I'll still be dual booting just in case something goes wrong--I just can't bring myself to completely switch over quite yet. ;)

Thanks for the ideas! Any new perspectives?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1ReD wrote:
jetblack wrote:
Why do you want 3d on the server? I think I'd leave the RAM in the second one as is, and just steal the hard drive. If the hardware you're looking at is supported under linux, I'd buy it and set up the new machine as your firewall running linux (throw debian on it or something). I wouldn't even bother with X. Let it handle the connection sharing. Keep your Main machine as is until you have the connection sharing working on the new box, so you can go back to a working configuration if you need to. Then, once the new server is set up properly, wipe the Main machine and install gentoo.

If you need 3d on the server, then this probably isn't the right approach, but if it really only needs to handle the internet connection sharing, then that's how I'd do it.

I'd say, though, that however you choose to set it up, go ahead and do it. If you can put together a new system for $90, it's worth it. It's always fun to have another machine to play with IMO.


OK so what YOU are saying to do is to basically just chuck any low level linux on, no X, and just have it sit there and be the internet sharer..This seems like a clausable idea, but I did want windows on here for 2 reasons: 1)Ease of internet sharing--I click a box and its done. Doesn't get easier than that, and 2)File Transfering through GAIM and such. Most everyone I know is running a Windows system, so I'd like to setup a place for anyone to send me files if they need to for school or whatever the case may be. If I'm running Linux on both main boxes, that can't occur. Basically it gives me a basic backup Windows box always running for just such an occasion. I don't need 3d at all, I was just gonna put it in because its been sitting in a box for I can't remember how long, may as well use it, but maybe I won't even if I do put Win2k on it...not sure yet.


Well, I certainly can't argue with you on the "ease-of-setup" front ;) Though you could always continue to use your main machine for connection sharing while you set up the linux box.

As for the file sharing, I'm not sure I completely follow. Are you saying that you would like for your friends to be able to send you files, which you would store on the new box, and then have access to those files from their Windows machines? You could do this with samba if you put linux on it. I don't really use gaim for file-sharing, so there may be some limitation here that I don't know about.

If Win2K really does all you want it to do, then by all means do that. I am mainly pushing the linux angle because the hardware requirements are a bit lower for a stripped-down linux server, and it would be a fun project. If you're comfortable with gentoo, then take pjp's approach and use a Stage 3 gentoo install rather than debian (I always forget about that for some reason).

W1ReD wrote:
IS there a way to have file sharing via different OS? Another problem would be that I want to share all these drives via a little home network, like it is now. If all are running linux, different builds, etc, I'm not sure how I'll be able to accomplish this. Even when I put Gentoo on the main rig I'll still be dual booting just in case something goes wrong--I just can't bring myself to completely switch over quite yet. ;)

Thanks for the ideas! Any new perspectives?

W1ReD


Yes, you can have file sharing this way using samba - if I understand what you are looking for correctly. In my home, for instance, I have a debian machine running samba that acts as a music server (all legal - thank-you very much ;)). My wife runs Win98SE on her desktop, I run gentoo on mine, and I dual-boot Win98SE for some games. Both machines use the samba share to play music off the debian machine (mine uses it under both Gentoo and Win98). My wife also stores her quicken files and some other stuff on the debian box. She also has an account on my desktop, which she accesses from her windows machine via samba or ssh, depending on what she wants to do. Both the music share on the debian box and her home directory on mine show up in her Network Neighborhood, and she can interact with them from Windows just like any other network directory. So, you can certainly do this. It's not too hard to set up under either debian or gentoo.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why win2k on your celeron? I would get that machine naked.. no hd no cd just a floppy and put minimum ram 16M would be more than enough, and 2 nics then install coyote linux which is a linux firewall /router which boots from floppy and does your internet sharing , dhcp server .. very easy to setup.. to setup you just have to specify the driver for you nics and the range off addresses you want for your local lan.. and thats about it...
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jlg wrote:
why win2k on your celeron? I would get that machine naked.. no hd no cd just a floppy and put minimum ram 16M would be more than enough, and 2 nics then install coyote linux which is a linux firewall /router which boots from floppy and does your internet sharing , dhcp server .. very easy to setup.. to setup you just have to specify the driver for you nics and the range off addresses you want for your local lan.. and thats about it...


Is there documentation? And what about using this Samba on here for sharing the 2gb HD if I were so inclined?

I think I might try the Samba method, and maybe get a Virtual windows AIM client to receive files in Linux or something, not really sure. I just want to make sure I have all computers on the network able to see all of the computers. Makes life simpler ya know?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

W1ReD wrote:
BUt you are saying to put Win2k on the P3? I already have Win2k/Gentoo on this system, and I'm not lookin' to format it and reinstall.
I was considering this as a replacement for your win2k on the big box. Get it running completely OK on this one, then solo with Gentoo on the big box.

Quote:
Another problem would be that I want to share all these drives via a little home network, like it is now. If all are running linux, different builds, etc, I'm not sure how I'll be able to accomplish this.
NIS should handle that.

The main reason I suggested the order of Celerson/firewall, P3 then P4 was so that you'd never be missing a functional system to get to the internet, etc.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another alternative to the file sharing could be to setup an ftp, then create accounts for your friends to send you stuff. and then you could use samba for your windows home network sharing.
Also its really not that hard to setup a router/firewall in linux, you can use gShield to automate the process if you wanted, its even in portage to make it simplier.
I wouldn't put win2k on the firewall/router box, if you only have 2gigs and you want others to share files with you then you want all the space you can get. win2k for a minimial install is arround 600mb if I remember correct.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.coyotelinux.com/

you should definetly not mixt your file server with your internet server.
if you want to mount windows shares in linux then emerge LinNeighborhood
if you want to share drives from linux to windows then you will need to read the samba how-to a little ;) you can even make your Linux samba server act has a PDC to windows.

if you really want to make a file server from that celeron machines then you could use a router instead. For about $60 you can get a Linksys or 3com router which will do all your internet sharing. Just plug in the internet and plug in your 3 other machines and through dhcp they can connect to the switch and be ready to surf the net. This will make your network much more secure also...

did you mean file sever for your local network? or to share through the internet? if you meant sharing through the internet then you need to setup a ftp server. In this case forget the router you will need to setup a server direct on the net
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jlg wrote:
http://www.coyotelinux.com/

you should definetly not mixt your file server with your internet server.
if you want to mount windows shares in linux then emerge LinNeighborhood
if you want to share drives from linux to windows then you will need to read the samba how-to a little ;) you can even make your Linux samba server act has a PDC to windows.

if you really want to make a file server from that celeron machines then you could use a router instead. For about $60 you can get a Linksys or 3com router which will do all your internet sharing. Just plug in the internet and plug in your 3 other machines and through dhcp they can connect to the switch and be ready to surf the net. This will make your network much more secure also...

did you mean file sever for your local network? or to share through the internet? if you meant sharing through the internet then you need to setup a ftp server. In this case forget the router you will need to setup a server direct on the net


Ok this is the deal.

In the end I want 3 computers:

1) Gateway to Internet, 2gb HD, OS in question.
2) Main rig, 40gb HD, Dual Gentoo/Win2k
3) Backup, 13gb HD, Dual Gentoo/Win2k

I want all three HDs to be able to see eachother, in any combonation of OSs.

I want a firewall on rig (1) to protect my other computers.

I want file transfer from anyone on the Internet via AIM to be able to go to someplace--File Server, main rig, wherever---I just want to be able to recieve/send files via this method to SOME COMPUTER on the network. If I can see all HDs from any other HD, then there shouldn' t be a problem once the files are there. I can setup an FTP, but some people that send me files (I'm at college, not everyone knows how to FTP believe it or not) only know how to send it via AIM or ICQ (or E-Mail) and I'm trying to make it as simplistic as possible on them.

These are all great Ideas, still narrowing/researching the method I'm gonna choose.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

then use a hardware router... aim will work through it and this will be secure!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes--but 60 more dollars.

I have the 80 to begin with, but not the extra to dish out for that. Besides, I have the extra NICs already.

I'll figure smoething out.


Thank you for all of your responses.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's what I might do then, given the last description:

I think I'd set this up in two phases. It sounds like you want to be able to dual-boot from your main machine, so I'd recommend the following (based on your descriptions of the 3 machines):

Phase 1:

1) Win 2K with connection sharing. use this machine only for the internet sharing. don't use it as a file server.

2) Gentoo/Win 2K, as you suggest. Use as your desktop, not your file server. Install Samba under Gentoo.

3) File server. I would strongly suggest installing just one OS on here, it doesn't matter which. I would use this as the file server. If it is running Win2K, then your windows machines will see it fine, and you can use smbmount (or mount -t smbfs) under gentoo to access the network shares from this machine. If it runs linux, then install samba on it, and your windows and linux machines will be able to view the samba shares. You could use NIS as well for the linux machines, but if you're going to be in a Windows/Linux environment, you may as well just use samba. Since you seem to be comfortable with Windows networking, you'll probably want to use Win2K on this machine.

Once you've got this going, I would do the following:

Phase 2:


1. convert file server (machine 3) to linux (if you haven't already done so). Back anything up to the main machine, and put gentoo on this machine. I wouldn't bother with X or any of that. Basically, all you'd need is a base install with networking and samba. ssh would probably be a good idea, too. This will save space on the hard drive, giving you more room to let the machine do its job.

2. Convert the firewall (machine 1) to linux. It would be beneficial at this point to have Win2K on your main box so that you could use it for connection sharing during the transition. Again, though, I would only use this box as your router/firewall. If you _really_ want to be able to see this hard drive from the rest of the network (and give this machine access to the rest of the network), then go ahead and put samba on it. But if you can avoid it, I would.

Of course, you shouldn't ever have to do phase 2. Phase 1 is probably the quickest way to get yourself going, and if that does everything you need, then stick with it. It's not too difficult to convert the file server to linux, though. So you may want to at least consider that at some point in the future.

I could see where you would want to use the machine with the large hard drive as the file server, but I am not too sure of an effective way to do this and dual-boot at the same time. Since you would like to dual-boot from this machine, I think it would be easier to use the backup machine as a file server, with a single OS.

Hope I'm not just confusing you :) Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy doing it!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hmmmm EXCELLENT reply. I might do that, although it seems difficult/time consuming--remember I'm impatient and somewhat slow;);). I figure maybe I'll just put Coyote on the Gateway and call it a day, but, I have until the stuff arrives (havn't ordered it quite yet) to make the decision.

Thanks a lot!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

just thought id mention: the latest official aim client for linux supports file transfer.
http://www.aim.com/get_aim/linux/latest_linux.adp
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2003 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe
See, the thing with linux is, its low resource.
X is a bit more, but a server has no need of it. I have gentoo on two boxes, main desktop and server
my server preforms

web server (http)
ftp server
mail server
database (mysql)
name server (bind)

firewall
nat and dhcp

Want to know the kind of specs you can run ALL that on?
Origionally I had it all (sans the DB) on a cyriux 486 with about 64 megs of ram.
Now its on a "super" powerful
pentium1 150mhz with 80megs of ram. 4 gig hard drive
yes folks, thats all it takes.
Unless you plan on haveing like corperate level traffic on your site, you ll have no problem. and i have no other problems either :)
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