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hook
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 9:32 pm    Post subject: an organisation for linux games/apps advocacy? Reply with quote

ok, i've been thinking...

has anyone noticed that our status as linux gamers has improved, but it hasn't improved a lot ...or to put it diferently: in the recent past all we got was a simultaneus port of ut2003 and nothig else!!

i think the only way to get what we deserve (=more games) would be to have an organisation to advocate linux (gamers) to the gaming industry and in every way possible ...i know it's guerilla, but we have nothing else left. i'm not saying spam them to death, i'm saying that there should be a site on the net that would advocate linux gaming (not happypuppy.org) in a way the gaming industry would understand and aprove. like:
- offering info about how many linux users are there, and the growth of this comunity
- how many of these users are/would be players and which genres do they prefer (a omnipresent poll would solve this!)
- how could linux comunity help the gaming industry (bugs, solves...)
- advocate open source projects and how this would benefit the gaming industry (that would be really hard!)
- sending petitions to gaming developers/firms to make linux ports (the same time as win and mac!), linux games, open-source abandonware (that would rock!)

the same goes for "proffesional" applications as photoshop, flashMX, CAD, at alteri

p.s. this is a complete copy-paste from my post on nwn forum ...it's meant as a teaser and starter of a hopefully constructive topic/movement, not a complete view
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 18, 2003 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree my friend. I would give anything to be able to play Starsiege Tibes1 on my linux box.....Not to mention at least run my Tribes server off my linux box.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also agree, but when editors purpose game server without game client, I think that we should don't install game server.
How many players play CS with linux servers ?
I only play RTCW online, but I like CS, but I won't play CS under wine. It's so easy for gaming industry !
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea, i whould like to complain somewere, but i dont know any place i can do that.

releasing the cs-server only and not the client part ensures that there will be secure/stable/good servers out there for all the windoze clients.. that sux!
so dont use it.

thats my way of complaining, (atleast when i was a player)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's my point exactly!!

we (=someone who has enough time) have to make a .org to advocate our place in this world. and we need one that would at least look if not be professional enough for the world to take it seriously and do something about our situation ...we won't get far if we only rant and rave about how low our position is in gaming and "professional" apps ...we have to DO something about it

i know some of you will probably flame me, why don't i do it myself, but the reason would be that i _really_ don't have time to make it work, i can just provide the idea at the time being ...sorry :(

so please, stand up and make us proud ...we're a comunity for gods' sake!!!

any volenteers?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

me :)

i can provide some space and html code to the site :)
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antonik wrote:
me :)

i can provide some space and html code to the site :)


sweet! :D ...that would be great!!! ...i hope we'll (i use we in the sense of "linux comunity" in this whole post/topic) manage to make it as professional as we can ASAP

1. we need a name (and an appropriate URL to go with it)
2. some serious insfo about what we are (as the .org AND as the comunity), what we want, what we need, why do we want it, why should we get it, how we can help firms that would cooperate, how these firms and the gaming/apps industry benefit from this etc.
3. a omnipresent poll in the style of:
- Q1: are you a linux user?
- Q2: would you buy a linux port of a comercial game if it was published (at the same time)?
- Q3: would you buy a comercial "professional" application if it was avaliable for linux (at the same time)?
4. a list of requests (and solutions) for (of) the games/apps we want in linux
5. we could get some help and backup from companies that already advocate linux (e.g. IBM) and other similar projects

...that's it for now ...can't think of anything else at the moment ...maybe we should change the topic to "penguins arise and demand what is yours!"? ...any better ideas?
...any suggestions?
...we need to act swiftly in order to win this battle!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems to me like we blew our chance with Loki. Instead of supporting them rightfully, most of us decided to take advantage of their lack of CD protection and pirate everything out of some selfish notion that everything in Linux should be free (as in beer).

We're lucky to have support from Epic, id, and Bioware (Well, Bioware's still working at NWN for Linux), three of the largest game developers in the PC gaming business.

Oh, and I'd also advise complaining about drivers to ATi. They have working drivers for Linux now, but last I checked they didn't perform nearly as well as their Windows drivers. In Windows, ATi beats nVidia thoroughly in OpenGL benchmarks. It's such a pity they haven't seemed to bring that sort of performance to Linux.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

don't get too negative ...it's not too late :)

...just finishing a article that newsforge asked me to write about this idea/.org ...we can do it!!! ...just focking stop yearning and start doing something!!!

thx, antonik... at least someone who has enough guts here to believe and carry out something that would benefit us all!

have a deep thought: if linus torvalds said in the 1991 "What the hack, if the UNIX didn't do it, how can I do it all by myself!" where would we be now?!? ...well ...just think about it, ok?
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a good talker/writer, assuming I don't have to be overly politically correct.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

article sent ...waiting for approval ...tomorrow i'll get

btw: is anyone interested that i send him the text i wrote so he can post a link to it? ...i don't have a server yet :(

....we're gonna do it! ...goddamn we're gonna do it!!!
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 10:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hook wrote:
article sent ...waiting for approval ...tomorrow i'll get

btw: is anyone interested that i send him the text i wrote so he can post a link to it? ...i don't have a server yet :(

....we're gonna do it! ...goddamn we're gonna do it!!!
sure post it here, so we get to see it before the world :D
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

Seems to me like we blew our chance with Loki. Instead of supporting them rightfully, most of us decided to take advantage of their lack of CD protection and pirate everything out of some selfish notion that everything in Linux should be free (as in beer).

Thats not the reason loki didnt make it, that was just mismanagement, I bought my copies form loki (even when the were double the price of the windows ones, like with tribes2)
Quote:

We're lucky to have support from Epic, id, and Bioware (Well, Bioware's still working at NWN for Linux), three of the largest game developers in the PC gaming business.

Make that id only, epic chose direct3d, and thus windows, their opengl rederer foor ut2k3 is crap and the dont want to make an unreal2 port for linux (they had to make a ut2k3 linux client to lure linux users in to running ut2k3 servers on their linux boxes)
Bioware lied about almost everything regarding their linux development, after 8 monts they still have nothing for us, and judging by the lack of competence their linux developer(s) showed so far I doubt the quality of their linux client will be any good..

My money goes to id, and I look forward to a official mohaa and serious sam:se port
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sgaap wrote:

Make that id only, epic chose direct3d, and thus windows, their opengl rederer foor ut2k3 is crap


Hmm, I've heard many complaints of performance issues but honestly I think it performs just fine on my machine. The textures are very detailed in that game, perhaps you need to tone them down a bit?

sgaap wrote:
and the dont want to make an unreal2 port for linux


Unreal 2 isn't being made by the same guys. Legend is making it.

sgaap wrote:
(they had to make a ut2k3 linux client to lure linux users in to running ut2k3 servers on their linux boxes)


That's bull. There have always been a large number of Linux servers for any game with server files available with or without a client port. Half-Life, for example.

sgaap wrote:
Bioware lied about almost everything regarding their linux development, after 8 monts they still have nothing for us


I'm sorely disappointed in Bioware for making us wait so long for a client, but they do provide screenshots and status updates here. They've done more than a lot of big game developers have.

sgaap wrote:
and judging by the lack of competence their linux developer(s) showed so far I doubt the quality of their linux client will be any good..


Who are you to say such a thing? Granted, the client has taken longer than expected, but that says more about the complexity of porting games than the people involved.

sgaap wrote:
My money goes to id, and I look forward to a official mohaa and serious sam:se port


Can't dispute this. id's been terrific to us Linux people and they're definately going to get my money when Doom 3 is out.
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's the mail i got from newsforge/linux.com two hours after i sent my second post to this thread
Code:

> Matija,
>
> I think an essay from you about what this new org
> hopes to accomplish
> and how it hopes to accomplish its goals would make
> a fine story for
> Linux.com/NewsForge. If you write it, I will happily
> edit it and run it,
> and once it's up on our site you can submit the link
> to other sites --
> and since NewsForge is monitored by many IT and
> mainstream journalists,
> chances are this will get you lots more media
> attention...
>
> Any length between 700 and 1500 words is fine. Don't
> worry too much
> about grammar and spelling. I can correct those
> easily.
>
> - Robin ' Roblimo' Miller
> Linux.com/NewsForge editor


and that's the article i send to them later
Code:
 What most of you have probably already noticed is that linux lacks commercial "professional"  applications (e.g. photoshop, flashMX) and commercial games. And that is the main reason why most "dual-booters" and potential linux users don't (fully) migrate to this astounding OS.

And why doesn't the linux comunity get any greater confirmation from the commercial industiy? Because they think that we, the linux users, wouldn't pay money for their software and are afraid that we aren't really interested in their applications. That is partially true: the avarage linux user doesn't want to spend good money on an application he could get for free. But there are still some applications that get quite a lot of respect from the linux users and those who need them would be quite happy if they could get them for their favourite OS even if they would need to pay for it.
One of those nieches in the software industry are "professional" applications. Most web-application developpers (note: double-check this term!!) are having quite a hard time trying to make flash applications and quite a few designers are a bit frustrated that they can't get a newer linux port of adobe photoshop and illustrator. And let's not forget that even needed applications such as printer/scanner driver and web-browser plugins aren't supported as much in linux as they should be (e.g. flashplayer and shockwave).
The other, maybe even biger nieche are games. While linux gamers always enjoy and have a big bunch of open-sourced games. there still is a large demand of commercial games (ut2003 went into the right way, and nwn is also slowly crawling in that direction). But the gaming industry is scared about the "new market", especially since Loki went bankrupt.
And that is just why most linux users rant and rave on and about on forums, irc channels and mailing-lists how they can't get apps to run under linux (using emulators etc).

That's all nice and fine, but that won't change the situation linux users and the whole linux comunity has to cope with! Nothing will change this way, it's going to stay as it is - only ranting and raving on and on. But we, the linux comunity, as one of the most powerful user comunities ever existing have a chance to change this! The only problem is that we don't act as a comunity on this level. And this is where a .org needs to jump in.

We need a .org that would benefit both the linux users and the software market (let's face it, if they don't see some profit, they won't even reconsider it).
What would benefit the users? They would have an organisation that would try to persuade the software companies to make software they need. They would also get a place in the web where they would have the right and chance to say what software they want and need and how those, who are (will be) already available for linux, are usable.
What would the software industry and particular companies get out of it? Well, the first thing that pops into mind is new users and with them more money. The second would be that the linux comunity is rather fond of helping out at projects they like, that would give them a very reliable source of feedback in more chategories: bug-fixing, testing, and future features. Some companies are quite afraid of the "new market" because they don't know it. And that's another thing that this .org would try to solve: while linux users get to say what they want and need, the software industry get info about what they would like to buy. That way both sides would benefit. No bombs, no casualities, no rants and raves, no fear o the "new market".
And how would we do it? Pretty easy actually. All we need is a web-space for a comunity/organisation to bring out the point why the linux comunity and the commercial part of the software market should walk hand-in-hand, how to achieve this. But the major role would have to play the linux community itself. The linux community would have to make the head-start. It would have to provide info about how large this community is, what they use, what they miss, want and need. That would be fulfilled pretty easyily: all we would need would be structured poll, concerning what _kind_ of software do they use, miss, want and need. The second stage would be that there would be a (structured) list of all this software the community wants, needs, misses and uses. And in this list the community would fill in requests (by numbers of requests the industry would know what to make; example: transgaming.com), give feedback about the code itself (its functionality, since probably most of the companies won't open their code so quickly), its features, suggestions about the application etc.

This is makable, but both the community and the industry have to listen to each others needs ...that's the only way, we'll ever get this running!!!

And don't think this is a heretic view and that this would be the downfall of open source. Quite the opposite. If we can get commercial applications to run under linux peoplo who need them will buy and use them, and others will still use open software instead (e.g. openoffice.org, gimp, mozilla, ming). Maybe we will even encourage some companies to seriouslly consider open-source. ;-)

Matija Šuklje (note: use Suklje if the Š doesn't work fine)

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

so this is it then ...some like the idea and that's it?!? ...come on people ...we haven't even started ...let's spit in our hands and DO THIS!!!! :D

antonik, can you make a quick page, only for us to start from?

...next, a name ...any suggestions?

...posting the same article to slashdot ...we have to get some attention some time soon :D
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yea sure... im coding one right now :)

(ill just take my page and redo it ;D)
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the range of commercial games for Linux is dreadful, but I think the game developers dont port to Linux because its just not worth it.
I know a hell of a lot of people use Linux - but how many are gamers? Quite a few i'd say, but compared to Windows gamers? Its nothing. Game dev companies would need new employees or train new staff which can take a hell of a lot of time to cover the subject of porting to Linux. After all that effort how many people are going to buy the poorly tested, unsupported game anyway? If I didnt have a nvidia or matrox card I wouldnt even bother playing games in linux - it takes only 1 minute to boot windows and have fast, stable drivers and the fully tested and supported game.

Unless GFX drivers pull along side with windows and the demmand for Linux ports increases a _lot_, I cant see Game companies making any serious effort to acomodate.

I think the future for Linux games is with WineX.

Sorry to be so negative - this is just how i see things.
But why not go with the .org idea, theres no harm in trying!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so the preview of the site is here
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

antonik, thx for the start :) ...it's a bit chunky, but it think it'll do for now :)

port001, that's exactly why we need this .org ...it would be a way of comunication between the community and the industry ...this way we'll solve a lot of problems together ...have faith, how are we going to convience them, if we can't even convience ourselves! ;) :D

we still need a name, fill the info in the page, register the page as a <name_of_the_org>.org, set up a poll, and we're almost ready to go ;) ...hmmm ...for the structured poll and the list (read the article) we would need someone who knows how to do this ...anyone?
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i think a good argument whould be "some linux users whould buy the game just to support the companie that made it availible for linuxusers" ;)

i know i am going to but the next game that is supported nativly under linux.
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

antonik wrote:
i think a good argument whould be "some linux users whould buy the game just to support the companie that made it availible for linuxusers" ;)

i know i am going to but the next game that is supported nativly under linux.


i don't know if that's a good idea ...you'll just end up having a lot of games and apps that you don't want and it still won't change a thing ...we need to comunicate with the industry in order to forsee together, what we need and want :D

but i have to admit: i bought ut2k3 for the same reason (and nwn too) ;)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:57 am    Post subject: Some thoughts. Reply with quote

Thought 1: Loki's big problem is that they were bringing out games months later than on Windows at double the price (since the Windows games can be bought budget by the time the Linux game comes out). To be competitive, Linux games need to come out at roughly the same time as Windows games, for the same price or less.

Thought 2: The Linux community has produced a complete operating system (Linux), a number of great GUIs, and an answer to Windows applications in almost every field. Why assume we need to go running to the corporations for games?

Granted, Linux is a loooooong way behind Windows when it comes to games, but it's been that far behind in other fields and made up the distance.

IMO, if you want good games on Linux, the way to achieve that is to CREATE them. Tools like Crystalspace and SDL are in place, or very close. The talent is out there - many of them are currently making some awesome levels, models and mods for commercial Windows games.

IMO, if you want to help, contribute to the Open Source gaming scene, and encourage others to contribute - add to the community's resources. If you want to go running to corporations - do that too.

You're convinced that people are willing to hand over their hard-earned money to see good games on Linux, so why not their time and effort?
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

irrevenant: you have some points there :) ...i'm not at all suggesting that we should waste talent, but i think that THOSE apps and games who ARE wanted should be ported at the same time as the win version ...that's why i suggested this .org, not because i want every app and game to be ported, that's utopic!!

btw: i prefer frozen-bubble, trackballs, armagetron...(pity that tuxracer closed its source) over most closed games and just can't wait for epiar, adonthell and planeshift to be fully playable :) and i prever OOo and Gimp over MSOffice and PhotoShop anytime (have them even installed on my long-dead win-account)

...but some people DO need/want those apps and for those (who are not few!) i think this .org would be a nice help

...and most of all, there's always the problem with drivers for more "unstandard" devices (like lemark, umax scanners, et al.) and software/plugins most users world-wide use (flash, real etc) ...some of them are hard to get, they get out late, unstable, or don't at all ...ok, there's always the "let's do it by ourselves. we don't need them!" option, but wouldn't it be a lot easier to let the original developper port it? ...i surely think so

btw: check out newsforge.org ..they have my article up and in just 2 days it got cca. 70 comments :) ...we may get somewhere soon

btw2: i just got an offering for up to 1GB webspace and a domain-name for free for our .org ...that would rock! ...now we still need a name (oh, yeah, and antonik, how's the page doing so far, interested in being one of the main admins of the page on that server? does anyone know how to make structured polls?)
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like a great idea to me! What I wouldn't do to see Photoshop and Warcraft 3 in Linux. It would be nice to not have to rely on Windows to play good games.

My only problem with selling Linux or Windows versions of games is that currently if I have a Windows game I can maybe run it in Linux with Wine and this is perfectly legal. But if I just bought a Linux version of a game, what would I do if I wanted to play it in Windows, because chances are it would run better in Windows. Run out and buy the Windows version too? I think that a license for a game should be 1 for COMPUTER not per operating system.
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